EHM The Blue Line

Nice little beef we got going here!
Keep it up guys, but keep it civil

* Name the last head coach to come in to the NHL straight out of Major Junior and have any success.
* Name the last NHL "great" player (I use quotes because it's sometimes a subjective thing) who became a head coach and had success.

If you can do that, I'll listen to you. Otherwise stop your sad hanging on to a long-dead rivalry, philou. You're ignoring past (repeated) failures in the NHL coaching ranks because *you* want it to work this time, in this case, with this team. This... was an ill-advised hire, and I expected better with Sakic being involved.

See what I said? Pessimistic everywhere. I don't want it to work this time because I used to be a huge fan of this team, it's because it's one of the first time a real good candidate emerges from the junior as a past player. Funny how you tell me to name head coach and great hockey player for examples and you don't seem to want/be able to name one. For now there's Roy who didn't coaches any game. The only one to comes to my mind is Oates but it's only his first season so to soon to tell.

Sometimes to advance at some point you need to forget the past and learning on failures. That can be usefull for our normal average life but putting that argument for coaching? Ridiculous. You're still a close minded annoying guy. Conversation close for me. I would prefer having a real hockey talk with batdad.

philou21 wrote:See what I said? Pessimistic everywhere. I don't want it to work this time because I used to be a huge fan of this team, it's because it's one of the first time a real good candidate emerges from the junior as a past player. Funny how you tell me to name head coach and great hockey player for examples and you don't seem to want/be able to name one. For now there's Roy who didn't coaches any game. The only one to comes to my mind is Oates but it's only his first season so to soon to tell.

You want *me* to name a coach that has jumped straight from junior? You've missed the point entirely, my friend. The burden is not on me to cite a successful example -- I asked you to because you're the one saying it's possibly and likely. So prove it. Otherwise, Roy's career in the "Q" doesn't mean a single thing.

Regarding the greats... Oates is one of those borderline "greats" in the minds of some, but the bigger problem than his qualifications is that he hasn't had real success yet and it's still too early to tell if he will. Apathy on the Washington team itself aside, I like Oates and hope he succeeds. I doubt he will though, because history indicates he won't.

Larry Robinson is the other former great that pops to mind but... it ended poorly for him. He "won" a Cup for a team on which he walked in right before the playoffs, then did nothing for the Devils during his own trainwreck of a tenure and was fired. Before that in 4 seasons in LA he had no success at all, and was fired.

The lesson here is that these kind of hires don't work. Decades of NHL hires and fires have proven this. There's a growing belief this extends to hiring and firing GM's as well. though the evidence is not quite as cut-and-dry yet.

philou21 wrote:Sometimes to advance at some point you need to forget the past and learning on failures. That can be usefull for our normal average life but putting that argument for coaching? Ridiculous.

You haven't heard what's been said about ignoring the past then? About being doomed to repeat it?

Do you even know the list of guys the Avs ignored to hire Roy? Here, have a look at an Available list as of 2 days ago:

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013 ... andidates/

Lindy Ruff. Paul Maurice. Dave Tippett (seriously, Tippett is a really good coach who has done wonders on terrible teams, and if he doesn't coach in the NHL next year somewhere it's a crime). Heck, throw Alain Vigneault in there. All far more qualified than one Patrick Roy, expect that I guess they didn't play with Sakic and that was what was important.

philou21 wrote:You're still a close minded annoying guy. Conversation close for me. I would prefer having a real hockey talk with batdad.

So you *don't* have anything to add, or anything to back you up, save for name-calling? Cool. Don't attack my opinion on things in the future unless you have something of actual substance to back you up then, k'?

Hitchcock, Babcock (only 2 seasons in AHL), Alain Vigneault (only ever an assistant in AHL). Basically all 3 of those guys, either Jack Adams winners or Stanley Cup winners had zero head coach experience or close to it outside of Junior or college hockey when came to NHL. There are others for sure, just those three (And Keenan) popped into my head. Sure there is some value in working in AHL as an assist or head coach, but really it is just a big a gamble to bring someone from there to the NHL ranks.

Patrick Roy is at least two things:

1. Great for hockey in Colorado...because the media and he chat chat chat. Lots of things will be said by Patty to help out the Avalanche public profile.
2. He is a sign that the AValanche are ready to spend $ again. They have not done so in the recent past. So...they may make things exciting going after good players who cost $ again.

Great players to good coaches?...are also few and far between....jusr like Junior to Head NHL guy. Why?

Reasons that both are is that NHL coaching is one of the hardest things to do....and there are ONLY 30 jobs available. Junior guys may lack experience in getting those jobs and it makes it much harder to reach the top and achieve at the top..especially when the jobs that are available are jobs that are usually with teams at a poor level of player roster.

FRom all I have heard about Roy as a coach in junior he is a bit old school a bit new school. Likes teams that play hard and bang and crash. With some skill and has high expectations of his players. All of this could and may translate well. However...he may also fall flat on his face if his GM does not go out and get him better players.

It really comes down to the players whether a guy has success or not..REGARDLESS of his experience.

Star players have a hard time understanding what it is like for a 4th line guy...they dont know how to go through that battle just to make a team, and they do not know how to make that player better. They just got lucky with god given skills.

I would actually argue that considering what he had in Phoenix for talent Wayne did a good job. Did Tippett do better? Sure. But does that mean Tippett should automatically be given a job somewhere else? No....it depends on what that team is looking to do....and what they have talent wise.

Really boys you are arguing over something that is six of one half a dozen of another.

Roy will be fine if players around him that are there now buy in, AND the Avalanche spend some money.HE will not be fine if the players (some of whom are known to be incredibly selfish) do not buy in, and do not get booted out (O Reilly comes to mind), AND the team does not go out and spend some $ on good talent.

Roy is not like other star players who have tried to coach in the past.."Geoffrion, Gretzky...all those guys are super skilled and not intense hard working jerks like Roy. They relied on god given talent and skill to succeed as players. Roy had the talent, but also had a crazy work ethic and hard ass personaility. It makes him hard to like as a player and person, but as a coach.....sometimes that is what is needed. Gretz lacked that as a coach. So did our friend Geoffrion way back when.

Finally...one could argue Brent Sutter was a pretty darn good coach, and a pretty darn good player.

Oh and Larry Robinson? He was not really fired in NJ, he decided he would rather teach than be the head guy. And he appears to be doing quite well in his job now in San Jose as an assistant. Those young d-men there are performing quite well....actually extremely well, and he is being credited a ton for what is going on there.

Larry is a great instructor and teacher. He is not a motivator and using him as an example is not the way to go. If he had the desire to be a head guy, he would be,.... and he would likely succeed. For the same reasons as Roy....he is a competitor and knows that the grinders have to battle and work every night. He understands what they go through much better than a guy like Gretz does.

Jacques Lemaire? He did alright as a star player to coach.
Bill Barber won a Jack Adams.
Al Arbour was an all star NHL defenseman in 1969
Randy Carlyle has won a Stanley Cup after being a Norris Trophy winner

There found a few in each category.

Roy"s experience as a player in the show is 2nd to none. Goalies understand the game alot better sometimes than other players.

Now if you were to ask me about success of goalies as NHL head coaches I would say...what success? But....the other two categories...Junior to NHL, and Star player to NHL coach....there are guys who have had much success.

I like your big post about coaching experience and a little elaboration of what it would take for Roy to be successful in Colorado, but it may fall on deaf ears because Primis drinks way too much redwing koolaid.

Primis wrote:* Name the last head coach to come in to the NHL straight out of Major Junior and have any success.

Peter DeBoer has had some success.

Primis wrote:So you *don't* have anything to add, or anything to back you up, save for name-calling? Cool. Don't attack my opinion on things in the future unless you have something of actual substance to back you up then, k'?

I don't have anything to add because I've made my point already, there's no need to repeat what I've said. I actually don't attack your *opinions*, I'm giving my version of it. There's a way of having a good conversation without saying the other is always wrong and saying stupid things like "I won't listen to you" etc etc...That is close-minded my *friend* and I even find you arrogant at some point. I *don't* force you to approve my opinions but at least respect it a little bit. Which you clearly don't. If you would've made a post like batdad, I would've *fun* takling to you about that but you don't seem to have the skills to do that. Don't mind posting anything else, I will not waste my time reading it. Sometimes backing up is the smartest decision.


By the way nice win by the Pens yesterday! Didn't really watched the game since I was at the restaurant but James Neal put up a nice game. Took some times for him to wake up but at least he did it.

Manimal wrote:

Primis wrote:* Name the last head coach to come in to the NHL straight out of Major Junior and have any success.

Peter DeBoer has had some success.

3 year in FLA, no playoffs at all, finished last in the weak SE twice, fired. 2 years in NJ, 1 Cup Final, 1 missed playoffs. Not really a great body of work and once again, like Larry Robinson he took over a good team that had instant success, but then could not sustain it (which is not entirely his fault if you believe losing Parise was the end of it all but... they do still have Kovalchuk, Brodeur, Elias, etc).

DeBoer is actually about the only recent example I could come up with at all myself, and I don't consider missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years as any kind of "success".


[quote=""batdad"]Hitchcock, Babcock (only 2 seasons in AHL), Alain Vigneault (only ever an assistant in AHL). Basically all 3 of those guys, either Jack Adams winners or Stanley Cup winners had zero head coach experience or close to it outside of Junior or college hockey when came to NHL. [/quote]

Well sorry batdad, but you're not really correct here. Ken Hitchcock was an assistant with the Flyers for 3 seasons before taking the head coaching job in the IHL with Kalamazoo/Michigan, and he was in his 3rd season in the IHL when he got the Dallas job. That's not straight from juniors.

Alain Vigneault? Like you said, 3 seasons as an assistant in Ottawa with the Senators before going back to junior for a year. He then became head coach of the Habs. Yes, he came form juniors to Montreal, but he was in the NHL previously.

Mike Babcock? He's a bit more rare in that he did not spend time as an assistant anywhere. He did spend two full seasons coaching Cincy in the AHL before getting the gig with Cincy's parent Anaheim, which is still more than jumping straight from the WHL.

So what you've done is listed 3 successful coaches who experienced working up through the minor pros and/or spent time as NHL assistants, which is more my point. That experience is valuable.

batdad wrote:Patrick Roy is at least two things:

1. Great for hockey in Colorado...because the media and he chat chat chat. Lots of things will be said by Patty to help out the Avalanche public profile.
2. He is a sign that the AValanche are ready to spend $ again. They have not done so in the recent past. So...they may make things exciting going after good players who cost $ again.

1. He absolutely will talk. A lot. And it will probably lead to a bit more coverage in Denver. That will be both good and bad probably...
2. I don't know about equating hiring Roy with spending money or willingness to do so. Nor do I know that it means anything since Colorado's success all came pre-Cap and they can't spend as freely as they did in the late 1990's and early 2000's. I do know teams that have succeeded in the Cap era generally have a sharp, fairly unheralded "cap guy" in the organization, and I don't know that COL even has one or who he is. PIT is really successful still in part because Jason Botterill is out-freaking-standing with the cap (look at who they brought in this year again, it's ridiculous). DET let Jim Nill go to DAL in part because Ryan Martin (himself an assisstant with Nill) is a good cap guy and apparently has been designated as Ken Holland's successor so if Nill wanted a shot as GM he needed to go elsewhere.

I hope for COL's sake they're not expecting to just spend money on UFA's and succeed though. That doesn't work anymore. Just ask BUF. Drafting is more important than ever to stay under the cap.

batdad wrote:I would actually argue that considering what he had in Phoenix for talent Wayne did a good job. Did Tippett do better? Sure. But does that mean Tippett should automatically be given a job somewhere else? No....it depends on what that team is looking to do....and what they have talent wise.

I don't know how other fanbases view him, but Wings fans by and large have great respect (and a bit of fear) of Tippett as a coach. He squeezes so much out of so little, and he can go toe-to-toe matching and juggling lines with anyone in the league. He doesn't seem to get easily flustered either like a Boudreau or Tortorella. We hated playing PHX in the playoffs. Hated it.

Now compare to a great team like Chicago coached by a guy like Quenneville who seems to get absolutely owned by the Wings. Wings fans don't respect or fear him, and even relish getting to play and abuse him, and we're pretty sure Quenneville's a lot of the reason CHI's down 1-3 because he can't line-match and juggle in-game.

batdad wrote:Oh and Larry Robinson? He was not really fired in NJ, he decided he would rather teach than be the head guy. And he appears to be doing quite well in his job now in San Jose as an assistant. Those young d-men there are performing quite well....actually extremely well, and he is being credited a ton for what is going on there.

Larry Robinson was indeed fired from the Devils in 01-02. Don't forget, he's been head in NJ in two different stints. He was fired the first time, then returned as an assistant, then took over again because, well, Lou Lamoriello. The second time he was taking over for Pat Burns, and then did step down himself.

I think Robinson is a very good assistant coach and probably teacher. I don't know that evidence shows he is a good NHL head coach.

Sutter and Carlyle, I don't know if they'd count as "stars" necessarily, they were pretty close, but not superstar. But maybe. Lemaire I don't know on, as that was just a bit too much before my time even. I've always thought he was more in the same tier as Sutter and Carlyle, but being in Montreal on that team I don't know if you could consider him a stand-out star or not, there were a lot of big names on those teams. Lemaire's a heck of a coach though indeed. He may be the exception here, and not the rule.

Al Arbour is really going back a bit too far. The 1970's and 80's bear no resemblance to the animal the NHL is now, and is no more relevant to this convo than Toe Blake or Ted Lindsay's times behind the bench.

Bill Barber coached less than 2 NHL seasons, did not get out of the 1st round either time, and was fired. He won a Jack Adams, yes, but nothing else. I can't consider him a "success" with no playoff success and less than 2 full seasons behind the bench. Winning a Jack Adams doesn't make a successful coach (just ask Ted Nolan). Roy might even win a Jack Adams and yet never crack .500. It's a weird (somewhat pointless) award that doesn't actually go to the best coach, but to basically the "most-surprising" or something.

timmy_t wrote:I like your big post about coaching experience and a little elaboration of what it would take for Roy to be successful in Colorado, but it may fall on deaf ears because Primis drinks way too much redwing koolaid.

Stop living in the past, you and philou both. It's kinda sad at this point. There is no rivalry, and hasn't been in forever. Get over it. DET won't even be in your conference anymore. It only exists in your memories and imagination.

There are indeed Wings fans who still hate Colorado like they used to, but there aren't many. I'm not one of them. COL has been bad enough that I'm removed from that and would probably like to see them become something other than a perennial lottery team, much like how after a while CHI being bad stopped being fun and a lot of Wings fans were happy to see them rejoin regular playoff status.

I don't think Patrick Roy is your answer.

I'm looking forward to the Bruins/Penguins series!

In the West I'd like to see the Red Wings beat the Blackhawks (likely!), and I'd like to see San Jose beat LA (not as likely! HaHa)

I hope both team keep the pace so we'll have one hell of a series! So far as the Pens don't put back Fleury. Hawks are likely done has you said and SJ can maybe force a 7 game but I doubt they'll pass the Kings. A Det-L.A. series should be good too.

Nice win by the Hawks, might be too late to wake up though.

Yeah, I fully expected the Hawks to win this one, but I will be surprised if they'll win at the Joe.

I'm kinda hoping for Wings-Kings series, since Detroit usually sucks against SJ. But flipside, this LA team is kinda... yeah, I dunno what to hope for!

Primis wrote: There are indeed Wings fans who still hate Colorado like they used to, but there aren't many. I'm not one of them. COL has been bad enough that I'm removed from that and would probably like to see them become something other than a perennial lottery team, much like how after a while CHI being bad stopped being fun and a lot of Wings fans were happy to see them rejoin regular playoff status.

I know the feeling, after a while it's not worth the effort to hate anymore... which is why as a Habs fan I'm happy to see the Leafs finally doing well again!

Indeed it isn't much of a rivalry if one of the teams is always out of the playoffs. Speaking of playoff games, I thought the Bos-NY game yesterday took the "let them play" to a whole new level. Football on ice. NY tried to play the same as Boston but they are just not big enough, tough enough, strong enough or as good at playing without refs I guess. The better team did win but it really wasn't hockey.

Off-topic:

Halifax Mooseheads won the Memorial Cup! Wasn't an easy win though Portland did a really nice job too. Seeing the three top pick of the NHL draft in one game was fun, MacKinnon finished with 3 goals 2 assists, Drouin with five assists I think and Jones one goal. I wish Jones had a better game I haven't seen him that much.

The tough choice now if what the Avs are gonna do with their first pick. At first I thought they should pick Jones since they need a good prospect in defense but after watching that game, they should just go with the BPA and pick MacKinnon OR Drouin. Both of them are really close to each other I think.

Bah...done with the coaching stuff. Primis...you can argue it all you want. Deboer is a great example of what Patrick ROy could pull off in Colorado...not in his first year mind you.

All coaches have failed. At whatever level they are at, and whatever level they come from. Every one of them has failed. Even the greats have failed and been fired. Except for Mr Barry Trotz....

batdad wrote:Bah...done with the coaching stuff. Primis...you can argue it all you want. Deboer is a great example of what Patrick ROy could pull off in Colorado...not in his first year mind you.

All coaches have failed. At whatever level they are at, and whatever level they come from. Every one of them has failed. Even the greats have failed and been fired. Except for Mr Barry Trotz....

I think it's going to take a few bad years for him to be fired. Seeing as how he is still the only coach ever for the Preds, it's going to a few bad years and probably a GM change before Trotz is fired (or he resigns/retires). Either way would you want to be 2nd coach in Franchise History at this point for the Preds?

And even Poile is probably not going anywhere anytime soon, they draft very well, and fleeced Washington to get Filip Forsberg.

Kings won. Quick was freaking insane in third period. That guy's on another planet.

Tortorella has been fired. No big deal.

philou21 wrote:Tortorella has been fired. No big deal.

Only a big deal if he ends up in Vancouver

That would be fun! The Sedins would shat their pants.

philou21 wrote:Kings won. Quick was freaking insane in third period. That guy's on another planet.

Niemi was good too, but not good enough as they lost

Yeah that was a goalie series. The Sharks missed a tons of opportunities though, they others Quick stole them.

Hawks won?!? REally? Wow.