CJ's NHL Player Rankings Vote

[Peter_Doherty]

Primis - DeKeyser is getting played as DETs #1 D-man but he isn't doing good in that role. I think he's severely overrated and the stats back me up, Green drives offense so much that he barely has to defend. DeKeyser just got really hyped out of College and had a good start but after that he never really progressed, on the contrary, his game actually got worse the bigger role he had to take (because of Kronwalls decline mostly).

[ClassicSwarley]

Peter, you make me feel dumb if my top 3s don't match up with yours because you make such great points about everyone

[Primis]

Primis - DeKeyser is getting played as DETs #1 D-man but he isn't doing good in that role. I think he's severely overrated and the stats back me up, Green drives offense so much that he barely has to defend. DeKeyser just got really hyped out of College and had a good start but after that he never really progressed, on the contrary, his game actually got worse the bigger role he had to take (because of Kronwalls decline mostly).

I disagree having watched so much of him. DeKeyser had a real rough patch during part of last season, but he's one of DET's most steady and dependable d-men and his progress has been steady even. He's similar to Marchenko in that when he's playing well you don't really see him or hear his name (nor should you). If you watch him play though, you see a guy that too often has been scrambling to cover for a partner that has done bone-headed things (hasn't mattered much who he has been paired with because, well... take your pick, DET has no lack of inept d-men). The one thing he had real trouble with was I think DET asked for a bit more offense from him, and IMO generating offense isn't his game beyond making that crisp long first pass. Kronwall's decline though made DET starved for offensive output from the defense (which made it all the more bizarre they didn't turn to Green on the PP). DeKeyser skates well and anticipates well. To me DeKeyser is a #3/2nd pairing d-man on a good team. On DET though, he's sadly the guy right now... who else are you going to play in the #1 role for DET? DET has no other #1 d-men, nor are there any in the system IMO...

Green is good, I've been quite pleased with his play overall. He's been better defensively than a lot of Caps fans claimed (although a few did in fact say he didn't get enough credit). It did take Green a really long time to get into the groove though with the Wings, so this coming season will be a big one. He had trouble it seemed like adjusting to a completely different team. But even then for the first half of the season at least Green was DET's best d-man at either end of the ice. He's been good enough I've been wondering how exactly Washington managed to screw up using him so badly.

The only question in regards to CJ's question though is Green vs DeKeyser. SOMEONE has to be DET's #1. At this point I'm not even convinced Kronwall *can* play anymore, he may spend all season on LTIR (and that's maybe for the best, because his skating is atrocious now). If Smith were put into the equation instead of Kronwall, you could get all *sorts* of combinations of rankings.

[leafstoaster]

POLL 1 - CBJ
1) Seth Jones (Top 2 d man)
2) Ryan Murray (Mid-to-low end top 4)
3) Jack Johnson (Bottom 6)

POLL 2 - NJ
1) Damon Severson (top 4)
2) Ben Lovejoy (Top 4)
3) John Moore (Top 6)

POLL 3 - DET
1) Green (Top 4)
2) DeSyker (Low end top 4)
3) Niklas Kronwall (Top 6)


I recommend using http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/ to get another perspective when doing rankings. Provides a great statistical look at players abilities.

[nino33]

I recommend using http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/ to get another perspective when doing rankings. Provides a great statistical look at players abilities.

The date on the linked page is February 16, 2015 - so I clicked to go to the main/home page and got a message that the domain has expired

[Peter_Doherty]

Peter, you make me feel dumb if my top 3s don't match up with yours because you make such great points about everyone

Thanks, i guess

I just try to back my thoughts up with solid arguments, both from what i've seen and from what i can tell from the stats, i like analytics if you haven't noticed

[Peter_Doherty]

Primis - The big problem with DeKeyser isn't his offensive output which is that of an average 2nd pairing D-man. The problem with DeKeyser is that he gets caved into his own zone for some reason, he's yet to be a positive Rel.CF% player in his career (Means he's worse then the average of his team in generating and suppressing shot attempts). 2015-2016 was actually his worst season to date when it comes to Rel.CF% with a very bad -5.28%. He isn't as bad in other categories which is why i still have him as a 2nd pairing guy though. I think he's much closer to a #4 on a good team then a #2/#3. I've seen a fair bit of Detroit too since i mostly catch the Eastern Conference and what i see agrees with the stats imo.

Also, i think Green is severely underplayed by you guys, he's so good actually. He should be your #1 D-man in ice-time for sure, he shouldn't have the tough defensive assignments though but you can be a #1 even if you don't have those

leafstoaster - Using a HERO or WARRIOR chart is a helpful tool if you just want a quick overview, but a chart like that has it's flaws. I would suggest looking at the raw numbers using Corsica Hockey or another site which tracks stats if you are looking deeper into a player or team.

nino - The chart works fine for me

[ClassicSwarley]

I just try to back my thoughts up with solid arguments, both from what i've seen and from what i can tell from the stats, i like analytics if you haven't noticed

I try to dip my nose into analytics, I follow some of the analytics guys on Twitter(Micah McCurdy @InnefectiveMath, @DTMAboutHeart etc) but I need to up my ''watching'' of the game, not just studying it. It's a bit tough for all of Europeans but I could definitely watch more games if I tried.

[nino33]

nino - The chart works fine for me

I can see the chart too, but the date on the page is from 20 months ago - when you click on "WIN THE PUCK" does it take you to the home page? It doesn't for me (it says the domain has expired)

[ClassicSwarley]

Nino, when I click to go to the home page, it says the same thing about the domain being expired.

[Peter_Doherty]

Yeah, it's the same. Doesn't really matter when the post is from though, they update the chart as they go. I like the HERO/WARRIOR charts for an easy overview.

Ur a goalie guy, right? If you aren't too bored with the modern game and goalies then you should check out the SAVE chart made by Ian Fleming, super easy to navigate goalie chart.

[nino33]

Ur a goalie guy, right? If you aren't too bored with the modern game and goalies then you should check out the SAVE chart made by Ian Fleming, super easy to navigate goalie chart.

I was a goalie, haven't played in 26 years...and I've no interest in modern goalie stats (it's the goalies that have ruined the game for me moreso than all other things combined, as I said in a recent post I've no interest in Michelin Men with mattresses for pads sliding around on their knees; growing up goaltenders to me were so cool to watch, with so many different styles/looks/ways of making a save)

If goalies wore reasonably sized equipment and (most importantly) profly pads were banned, I'd probably be a fan of modern hockey


EDIT - oops! it's been 26 years since I played not 16; if I tried playing now even with my standup style afterwards I'd probably be to stiff to move for days HaHa
That's me in the Canucks jersey around 1980/1981 in my background pic on the SI Forum https://community.sigames.com/profile/250990-nino-33/

[Peter_Doherty]

Aight

[leafsrock67]

2) DEFENSEMEN #2

POLL 1 - CBJ
1) Seth Jones
2) Jack Johnson
3) Ryan Murray

POLL 2 - NJ
1) Damon Severson
2) John Moore
3) Ben Lovejoy

POLL 3 - DET
1) Mike Green
2) Danny DeKeyser
3) Niklas Kronwall

[leafstoaster]

I recommend using http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/ to get another perspective when doing rankings. Provides a great statistical look at players abilities.

The date on the linked page is February 16, 2015 - so I clicked to go to the main/home page and got a message that the domain has expired

Dont worry about the date. If you scroll down if gives you an interactive chart/tool that lets you compare players from a statistical POV. Has a separate one for forwards and defensmen.

[Aladyyn]

God I wish HERO charts never became a thing

[Peter_Doherty]

God I wish HERO charts never became a thing

Why? I mean, they should never be the end all be all but they are a helpful tool for an overview.

[Aladyyn]

God I wish HERO charts never became a thing

Why? I mean, they should never be the end all be all but they are a helpful tool for an overview.

Because I'm sick and tired of misusing them and as a Buffalo fan, I see it happen a lot. The charts are weighted for the past 3 seasons so they are terrible at painting a picture about some of my team's players. They also lack any sort of context and actual proper numbers. That's my big beef, they don't actually tell me as much as looking at specific stats would.

Also they make Ristolainen look bad

[Peter_Doherty]

They make Ristolainen look bad because he's played in a role he can't handle. I think Sabres fans overrate Ristolainen more then the HERO chart underrates him. I agree about context though and that looking at specific stats tell a better story, but HERO charts give a good quick overview.

It's not just the HERO chart that doesn't like Ristolainen, i've yet to see anyone in analytics say that Ristolainen is anything more then a 2nd pairing guy tops, which is probably the truth. Can he develop into a legit 1st pairing guy? Absolutely, he has some great tools to build on, especially his offensive game is pretty good. But he is not a 1st pairing guy at this point in time but Sabres are playing him like one, hence the bad numbers. It obviously doesn't help that he's paired with a 3rd pairing guy in Gorges either.

Edit: Sorry about going off topic here, let us know if we stray too much

[CJ]

You're a bit off-limit now when talking about players who haven't been mentioned here. But I get it. A little discussion is always good.

I'm not a fan of analytics and stats, and probably never will be. I like to see a player with my own eyes. BUT if I've never seen a player play then that's the source I have to lean on.

For example Tanev has the worst Corsi/60 (5 on 5) in the league. Andy Green also one of the worst. And these two are great D-men. A reason I turn away from the whole Corsi/Fenwick thing.

[Peter_Doherty]

Not sure where you are getting your information but Chris Tanev does not have the worst Corsi in the league, far from it. He had a 49.38% CF%, 50.21 CF60, 51.72% FF%, 2.11% Rel.CF% and a VERY good 5.61% Rel.FF% last season. He's a guy that is LOVED by analytics because he's so insanely good defensively, he doesn't drive offense but his defensive stats are actually off the charts. Think he ranks #1 defensively by most that are into analytics.

Andy Greene is harder, his stats are mostly bad because he was on a bad team playing a very big role. I think he's a good #3.

[Aladyyn]

They make Ristolainen look bad because he's played in a role he can't handle. I think Sabres fans overrate Ristolainen more then the HERO chart underrates him. I agree about context though and that looking at specific stats tell a better story, but HERO charts give a good quick overview.

It's not just the HERO chart that doesn't like Ristolainen, i've yet to see anyone in analytics say that Ristolainen is anything more then a 2nd pairing guy tops, which is probably the truth. Can he develop into a legit 1st pairing guy? Absolutely, he has some great tools to build on, especially his offensive game is pretty good. But he is not a 1st pairing guy at this point in time but Sabres are playing him like one, hence the bad numbers. It obviously doesn't help that he's paired with a 3rd pairing guy in Gorges either.

Edit: Sorry about going off topic here, let us know if we stray too much

There are like 5 Dmen in the league that could handle the role Risto was put in. Even PK Subban had trouble carrying Gorges on a top pairing, and that was not in Hjalmarsson-level assignments.

Ristolainen is absolutely a top-pairing defenseman. Has a long way to go to become a #1, but he's absolutely top-pairing calibre. He just can't be asked to carry the load basically by himself all season, he managed to do it admirably for about 40 games (which is where a lot of the hype comes from, he was fantastic for the first half of the season, top 20 dman fantastic) before his play dipped from possibly fatigue, possibly a slump (he was only 21 after all). He picked up his play to end the season but Bylsma really needs to ease up on him this year. He even said Risto was going to drop 2-4 minutes of ice time on average, though I don't really believe that, he's still by far the best defenseman on the team (and no, Cody Franson is not a good defenseman and everybody who says he is needs to watch one Sabres game from last season to realize that).

And he sure is better than Vatanen, who you called a #2-#3. The gap between them was apparent at the WCoH, where Risto was once again head and shoulders the best Dman on his team and was arguably the best Dman on the ice in the match against Sweden and their stacked D-core. He's a young guy that needs to find his consistency. But his top end is higher than almost any other young Dman.

[Peter_Doherty]

I don't agree with that at all and the numbers support me, Ristolainen hasn't shown anything to prove he's a top pairing defenseman and he's never played like a #1, not even during a short stint.

I think he has good potential but he's not there yet, imo he needs to be deployed as a #3 Offensive D with slightly sheltered starts.

Yeah, i think Vatanen is a better player then Ristolainen at this point in time.

[Aladyyn]

I don't agree with that at all and the numbers support me, Ristolainen hasn't shown anything to prove he's a top pairing defenseman and he's never played like a #1, not even during a short stint.

I think he has good potential but he's not there yet, imo he needs to be deployed as a #3 Offensive D with slightly sheltered starts.

Yeah, i think Vatanen is a better player then Ristolainen at this point in time.

Yet people pencil in Ekblad as a guaranteed #1. Numbers without context are just numbers, hockey is too complex of a game to be broken down without watching.

Vatanen has a good shot and can carry the puck up the ice well. He's average to below average at everything else. Risto is better both offensively and defensively.

[Peter_Doherty]

I very much disagree with you here. Your subjective memory also doesn't remember every little detail in a game, and over a full season you lose ALOT of information. So ONLY watching is just as bad as ONLY looking at numbers. I've seen Ristolainen enough to feel confident in my view on him.

We're not coming anywhere so let's just leave it at that.