Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.56 Discussion Thread

[philou21]

For 2) It's not unrealistic for gamers to expect PROGRESS in game making. EHM 2007 is 6 years old now. In six years, a gaming company with a ton of history in sports sims can't best a six year old game? There's no excuse for that, in my opinion.

You're totally right in the first sentence. But OOTP didn't started FHM 5-6 years ago and develop it right away. We heard news about it since what.... 1 year and a half? 2 years max? They did alot of sims for baseball game, not hockey, it's totally different and it's a different mentality too.

[B. Stinson]

EHM 2007 is 6 years old now. In six years, a gaming company with a ton of history in sports sims can't best a six year old game? There's no excuse for that, in my opinion.

Heh, someone on the OOTP forums also tried using this completely moronic logic.

Just curious, how old is Franchise Hockey Manager?

[newsguyone]

EHM 2007 is 6 years old now. In six years, a gaming company with a ton of history in sports sims can't best a six year old game? There's no excuse for that, in my opinion.

Heh, someone on the OOTP forums also tried using this completely moronic logic.

Just curious, how old is Franchise Hockey Manager?

I don't know why you felt the need to resort to insults, Stinson.

6 years in the video game world is a long time.
If I can out with a console hockey game -- how long do you think it would last if it wasn't as good as NHL EA 2007?

If I'm in the video game business, I don't have the luxury of "it's my first time out." If I can't best a 6-year-old game that had several fatal flaws (broken regen system, online only allows 16) then I'm in trouble.

FHM 13 needs to be better than EHM 07. No excuses.

[Alessandro]

Well, I am on the disappointed side as well. We all knew that this game couldn't beat EHM 2007, but I was expecting more in terms of realism and game play immersion. The biggest problem I have, before the realism, before the terrible GUI, before than everything, is that for now it's darn boring. You have nothing to do, just click "continue". They should have avoided either the historical play or the fictional leagues, I think, and focus on more basic things. Ok historical play has been there since the beginning, but fictional leagues were added recently, and that was, in my opinion, plain wrong as a lot of stuff isn't working yet

[archibalduk]

A lot of what we've been discussing (i.e. improved AI, better designed UI, deeper tactics, etc) probably isn't all that complicated for the devs to implement - certainly when compared to things like adding the WHA to the game, which they've already achieved

Really? I don't know anything about game development, but I would think tactics and AI would be some of the most complicated things to program/add (given the significant range of options and the large number of factors interacting that are required).....I would think "AI" (including player AI/tactics) would also require the most testing, while testing the WHA would be much easier (it either shows up/unfolds as it should/folds or it doesn't); I'd think testing tactics would have to be tested in different leagues (close to 20 different modern leagues so far) with different player types/templates to ensure they do what they're supposed to and don't do anything unforeseen, and AI would be the same way (again requiring significant testing in multiple leagues) - to be honest this spring I thought by now this would be where the beta was at, with the summer months full of users providing the significant testing needed

But the AI and tactics already exist in game albeit in a relatively raw/basic form. IMO it's merely a case of adding to what is already there. It's not as though they have to write the tactics engine from scratch; I'm just proposing that they take what they have and develop it further. For example, didn't the devs spend the last week developing trade AI? Hence I don't think it's as complex as adding the dynamic surrounding the WHA popping up and folding. But like you and Alessandro (and others say), this ought to have been added to the game a long time ago and before things like fictional mode were considered. That's not to belittle those who want a fictional mode, but I think the basic hockey game should be running before new modes are added to it. The same point could be made for historic mode.

[nino33]

But the AI and tactics already exist in game albeit in a relatively raw/basic form. IMO it's merely a case of adding to what is already there. It's not as though they have to write the tactics engine from scratch

I guess I thought if you have 20 modern leagues with "commissioner mode" (editable league rules, playoff formats, contracts, drafts, finances, scoring levels, etc) than most everything needed for historical/fictional modes was already there

[Tasku]

6 years in the video game world is a long time.
If I can out with a console hockey game -- how long do you think it would last if it wasn't as good as NHL EA 2007?

If I'm in the video game business, I don't have the luxury of "it's my first time out." If I can't best a 6-year-old game that had several fatal flaws (broken regen system, online only allows 16) then I'm in trouble.

FHM 13 needs to be better than EHM 07. No excuses.

I don't think this is completely fair. How much progress has happened to say, FPS games in the last six years, such as Call of Duty? Other than graphics, not much, I'd say. In general only the graphics have improved in the world of video games, not much else, and games like EHM and FHM don't rely on graphics, as we well know. Especially AI, which manager games rely on heavily, has seen very little progress over the years.

I haven't bought the game yet, so I guess I shouldn't have commented. I just thought I should state my opinion.

[Yakaitshi0]

Bought the Beta version, played 2 seasons quickly and I gotta say it's pretty disappointing.
Maybe by the time the full game gets released it will be improved, but there are a lot of things that are bugging me in it right now.

[B. Stinson]

I don't know why you felt the need to resort to insults, Stinson.

Because that logic deserves nothing less than an insult. It's that bad. It's complete and utter nonsense. There aren't enough adjectives to describe how illogical and misguided it is to think that a game must be better than "Game X" because Y-number-of-years have passed.

"Wow, Bob, it's been 58 years since Einstein, and your stupid little newborn son can't even spell 'relativity'. There's no excuse, Bob. Your son is a disappointment."

[luminouscarcass]

As someone that has played OOTP since version 7 and EHM since it came out, IMO, there are very significant differences between the two (obviously). I kind of view EHM as the paragon of simulation machinery, whereas FHM (strongly influenced by the mechanics of OOTPB) allows way more flexibility and customization. The best thing about OOTP is that you can create an insane variety of universe configurations (focus on Japanese baseball, independent baseball, purely fictional world baseball, Ghana baseball leagues, etc). With EHM this is impossible. Now, I agree, FHM has got some issues, and obviously it's a BETA; but being familiar with the OOTPB company, I was fully expecting that. BETA inherently implies bugs, and although a majority of users on both TBL and the OOTPB boards verbalize that, the general consensus is disappointment. I really think that the BETA should have remained restricted as opposed to public, because they only fueled the argument that their premature product was ill-equipped for consumption. I knew from the very beginning there would be an insane amount of irrational children buying the BETA and expecting EHM 13, not FHM Beta 1.0. So by doing that, OOTP kind of shot themselves in the foot. No amount of logical conversation is going to appease someone that had incorrect expectations, despite the numerous disclaimers posted officially by the development team and unofficially by supportive fans. EHM 2007 is like a cult movie and FHM is like the a re-make of a cult movie. However, I think that FHM will ultimately fare much better then a remake, because it has the mechanics to allow for some very immersive games. One thing that really puts me off though in regards to FHM is the stress of "playable" and "non-playable" leagues. In OOTP this is completely arbitrary, as all leagues created (whether fictional and catered to be real or driven by databases) are playable. Why this wasn't implemented from the very beginning or was modified is kind of annoying; because if it would have remained intact, essentially any league anyone requests would have been a possibility.

[Animal31]

Except he's not wrong. Anyone with access to the internet can make a pong clone. Hell, someone I had a summer game design program with made an exact super metroid ripoff within a couple of weeks using UDK. If I wanted to, I think I could make a doom clone with the knowledge I have BEFORE starting my actual bachelors degree. Its not hard. and super metroid only came out 20 years ago, compared to pong at like a billion. Honestly, im not confident, but I think I could release a game on par with the first halo, by myself, in like a year, after im done school.

And that still doesnt change the market of competition

If I make a halo 1 clone, will it sell? no. Why buy that when you can buy Halo 2?

Its a major problem in all of the gaming industry. People are releasing games that are good, but they arnt releasing games that are better than games that came out 10 years ago. Id rather play Halo 3 than halo 4 because its just a better game. You're always going to be compared to similar games, no matter what. And no matter what you better be able to be competitive. Every game released should be better than the one before it, other wise its a wasted effort

Why play FHM when I can just play EHM, for instance. Why play Halo 4 when I can (I cant) play Halo 2? Why play a boring new game when I can just play a fun old one? We have both the technology, the experience, the power, and the knowledge to blow old games out of the water, yet we dont, and thats just dumb

[nino33]

As someone that has played OOTP since version 7 and EHM since it came out, IMO, there are very significant differences between the two (obviously). I kind of view EHM as the paragon of simulation machinery, whereas FHM (strongly influenced by the mechanics of OOTPB) allows way more flexibility and customization. The best thing about OOTP is that you can create an insane variety of universe configurations (focus on Japanese baseball, independent baseball, purely fictional world baseball, Ghana baseball leagues, etc). With EHM this is impossible. Now, I agree, FHM has got some issues, and obviously it's a BETA; but being familiar with the OOTPB company, I was fully expecting that. BETA inherently implies bugs, and although a majority of users on both TBL and the OOTPB boards verbalize that, the general consensus is disappointment. I really think that the BETA should have remained restricted as opposed to public, because they only fueled the argument that their premature product was ill-equipped for consumption. I knew from the very beginning there would be an insane amount of irrational children buying the BETA and expecting EHM 13, not FHM Beta 1.0. So by doing that, OOTP kind of shot themselves in the foot. No amount of logical conversation is going to appease someone that had incorrect expectations, despite the numerous disclaimers posted officially by the development team and unofficially by supportive fans. EHM 2007 is like a cult movie and FHM is like the a re-make of a cult movie. However, I think that FHM will ultimately fare much better then a remake, because it has the mechanics to allow for some very immersive games. One thing that really puts me off though in regards to FHM is the stress of "playable" and "non-playable" leagues. In OOTP this is completely arbitrary, as all leagues created (whether fictional and catered to be real or driven by databases) are playable. Why this wasn't implemented from the very beginning or was modified is kind of annoying; because if it would have remained intact, essentially any league anyone requests would have been a possibility.

Their initial release date was last January, so the company set up the expectations (consumers have been waiting 9 months beyond their initial promised release!). The developers decided to add fantasy/fictional mode only weeks before release when the game was still unplayable due to bugs/issues...when they make such decisions it's not like they're making any effort to limit the hype!

Despite most of the famed customization being turned off/not working the basic game is still unplayable (and what little is there is seemingly not impressing anyone).

Things like Strength being spelled wrong and shutouts not showing were reported on day 1 of the beta release in March, and they're still not fixed - I don't get the impression anyone in the company is even following the threads for data/bug issues (this bugs me in light of all the "it's a beta" and "they listen to feedback" comments).

And the whole "it's a beta" is wearing really thin IMO (release is only two weeks away!)
Maybe tons of negative postings is the marketing plan, and they're purposely releasing versions that are full of bugs/issues they know they've fixed, but I doubt it.

I bought the game the day it was released and I bought OOTP14 too (though I don't play it) to support the company, and while I'm willing to pay for a first version that I can't play anytime soon I don't think that's fair to ask of paying customers once the game's been released (the advertising they're rolling out strongly implies a complete/polished game, no reference that I saw to a first version/etc)

[archibalduk]

Now, I agree, FHM has got some issues, and obviously it's a BETA; but being familiar with the OOTPB company, I was fully expecting that. BETA inherently implies bugs, and although a majority of users on both TBL and the OOTPB boards verbalize that, the general consensus is disappointment. I really think that the BETA should have remained restricted as opposed to public, because they only fueled the argument that their premature product was ill-equipped for consumption. I knew from the very beginning there would be an insane amount of irrational children buying the BETA and expecting EHM 13, not FHM Beta 1.0. So by doing that, OOTP kind of shot themselves in the foot. No amount of logical conversation is going to appease someone that had incorrect expectations, despite the numerous disclaimers posted officially by the development team and unofficially by supportive fans.

I'm not really sure if that's the issue. Yes, there have been a lot of users since the first beta release saying that the game is basic and buggy, but there has been an even greater number of users saying that it's to be expected because it's only a beta. However, things are different now because we're 2 weeks away from release. This is why there has been a noticeable increase in the number of users expressing disappointment/concern/frustration on TBL, the OOTP Forums and HFBoards. Not because it's a beta, but because there are 16 days to release and the game is regarded by many as clunky and/or unplayable (ignoring the bugs).

One thing that really puts me off though in regards to FHM is the stress of "playable" and "non-playable" leagues. In OOTP this is completely arbitrary, as all leagues created (whether fictional and catered to be real or driven by databases) are playable. Why this wasn't implemented from the very beginning or was modified is kind of annoying; because if it would have remained intact, essentially any league anyone requests would have been a possibility.

The game will apparently eventually have the same OOTPB option to make any and all leagues playable. I think it's simply that the devs haven't enabled the function yet (if you take a look at the Commish Mode in game you'll see that many options have not been enabled yet due to stability issues). Currently, leagues are made playable by the devs once they satisfy a minimum criteria of data (i.e. full rosters, complete with bio data, TAs and templates).

However, I think that FHM will ultimately fare much better then a remake, because it has the mechanics to allow for some very immersive games.

This is my hope too. So long as they address the playability and GUI issues then all will be good.

[newsguyone]

ADMIN NOTE: The content of this post has been removed because it was highly offensive. We don't tolerate that kind of behaviour on TBL and so you can consider yourself banned. - Archi

[philou21]

Interesting POV everyone!

[luminouscarcass]

I think some of my thoughts might be misinterpreted; in regards to FHM having plenty of issues: I completely agree. Is the first version going to be plagued by problems? Probably so, and it's very unfortunate. Is EHM always going to be the de facto hockey sim? Probably so (and deservedly so). But in regards to FHM and the future: I really hope the game / developers come through (without having to pay for 2-3 future versions); this is simply because I love the ability to customize my gaming universe. I'm more into playing obscure leagues then simulating the NHL experience (same as MLB and OOTP). It'll be awesome to have the NHL and WHA remain separate leagues and see how they evolve, or play as the indie-WPHL in the late 90's and possibly create an independent super league out of the WPHL-CHL-ECHL-UHL. There are so many possibilities of randomness that really aren't possible with EHM due to the hard-coded limitations. My main point was that it's probably a mistake to have an open BETA (particularly one where you pay for the right to test); because with the game in it's current state, it'll likely blow up in OOTPB's face. If the BETA would have been strictly controlled, and the game developed at the pace it did, worst case scenario the release date gets bumped a couple of times. Now, with paying customers stuck with a broken product, the BETA argument has no weight. I just wish that OOTPB would have handled things differently.

[archibalduk]

I think the beta was only released because the game was already lagging behind. The game was originally scheduled for a Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 release. The users were getting impatient with the lack of news right at the release date. So in response the devs pushed-back the release to Sept 2013 with a beta release in March 2013, so that long-time followers of the development had something to try out in the mean time.

I too wish things were handled a little differently. I wish no release date had been suggested in the first place, more time had been spent on the UI and the core game had been worked on more. I just hope these things are addressed ideally in a post-release patch or, if not, in version 2. My fear is that instead we'll just see more and more new features/rules/modes added rather than any real improvements to the core gameplay experience. What does give me hope, however, is that there are many users expressing the same view and the devs do react to user views.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for customisation (after all, many of us here have been doing our best to customise EHM for the past 9 years). I just want to have an enjoyable game that is worth customising.

[Alessandro]

Well said, Archi. I think the same.

[batdad]

1. The data and bug forum IE Spelling typos etc not being implemented when reported on day 1. BRUTAL.
2. The fictional league rubbish--Asked for day 1, and received. Because even though there were just as many people saying GET THE GAME RIGHT FIRST before FICTIONAL....the guys asking for stuff instead of limiting to get things going and working properly got their wish. To me...this has absolutely wrecked my confidence in the builders of the game. They gave the starry eyed kids with the 3000000 ST LOuis BLUES teams....what they wanted...TO THE DETRIMENT of how the game looks, feels, plays and works. BRUTAL


So in some ways it is the fault of the people....asking for starry eyed advanced features that the developers think is cool to code and more fun for them than it is to create a proper UI and create proper game play (AI)....which coding is probably tedious for. These starry eyed LIndroses who talk about the 30 0000 leagues and flood the forums with the stories of fake free agents signing with fake teams in fake cities in fake states in fake countries on fake planets in fake galaxies....are responsible whether they think they are or not...for wasting the time of several developers, several testers and the dollars of several people like myself.

I tried out the latest version...turned it on...saw the STRENGTH spelling mistake and the EXACT SAME CLUNKY UI....the EXACT same horrible AI....and the exact same boring shell of a game...and turned it off.

SOrry...but this game does not interest me AT ALL anymore.

And i feel bad for the guys like archi and alessandro who have put hours upon hours into researching, logos, tools....and work...for basically jack eff all.....and these doorknobs at whatever the hell the company is...FHM.....have not done a darn simple thing.

Totally and completely unforgiveable to not spell Strength correctly...after all THIS TIME. A half second fix....

So...I will if I have time play EHM and will be NOT TOUCHING FHM....probably forever no matter how many versions there are. This is inexcusable and an absolute showing that they could care less about what really matters in the game ....it will not survive.


PS---LOVE STINSON Comment on Einstein vs the baby. But the baby could spell strength...at least after you told the baby 100000 times how to spell strength.

[Alessandro]

Lol batdad, you gave me a couple of good laughs. I mostly agree with you (but I'm less angry ), BUT I think that this game has some potential, so maybe it will be worth of a second shot maybe next year

[archibalduk]

I would have loved it if Batdad had misspelled "strength" in his post!

[Tasku]

So how is "strength" spelled in the game?

[nino33]

So how is "strength" spelled in the game?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/3 ... post6.html

[Tasku]

So how is "strength" spelled in the game?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/3 ... post6.html

Ah I see. Thanks.

[Primis]

1. The data and bug forum IE Spelling typos etc not being implemented when reported on day 1. BRUTAL.
2. The fictional league rubbish--Asked for day 1, and received. Because even though there were just as many people saying GET THE GAME RIGHT FIRST before FICTIONAL....the guys asking for stuff instead of limiting to get things going and working properly got their wish. To me...this has absolutely wrecked my confidence in the builders of the game. They gave the starry eyed kids with the 3000000 ST LOuis BLUES teams....what they wanted...TO THE DETRIMENT of how the game looks, feels, plays and works. BRUTAL

Here's the thing, and I'm sure you'll disagree with it because you've already made up your mind. But I want others to consider this in re: to the above.

FHM is still considerably-inferior to the original NHL EHM from 2004. The people saying "Just make the NHL playable!" are missing the point that if they did that, they still leave NHL EHM 2007 (years old) as still vastly superior. I'm pretty sure they felt they had to bring something 2007 didn't have, and had to do so the first time because of NHL EHM 2007. They're trying to charge $30 preorder, $40 release for this product. They had to have SOMETHING as a hook, because nobody was paying that money for a game with say, just NHL and AHL playable (shoot, if you want that go play freeware EHM).

I'll be blunt: had they said from the start that they, say... weren't going to worry about making FHM editable and customizable, I wouldn't have even given it a second look and they had absolutely 0% chance of getting me to preorder.

And I don't think these feature being in or not was going to help anything. The fact is, NOBODY at OOTP seems to actually be working on the game to further it. Features aren't the problem, OOTP (the game) is, and the devs are, because they keep having to spend all their time messing with the baseball game and FHM is getting almost nothing.