ESPN TBL Fantasy Hockey 2009/10

[corinthian]

Congratulations Marsac!

My Keepers are : C-Backstrom ; LW-Eriksson ; RW-Hossa ; D-Green ; D-Ernstrom ; G-Miller

I might trade Eriksson & Ernstrom. (I hope trading picks will be available).

[CatchUp]

Final Relegation League Standings

Pos. Team ... W-L-T ... PCT ... SW-SL-ST
1. Phaneuf Is Enough ... 1-1-0 ... .667% ... 20-9-7
2. Boston Irish ... 2-1-0 ... .667% ... 15-16-8
3. Philadelphia FHC ... 1-2-0 ... .333% ... 15-16-5
-------
4. Chicago Sun Bears[sup]1[/sup] ... 0-1-0 ... .000% ... 14-15-7
5. Caerphilly Saints[sup]2[/sup] ... 0-2-0 ... .000% ... 12-18-6
6. Kent Mighty Turnips ... 0-3-0 ... .000% ... 13-18-5

Tiebreaker: 'Stats Won' (SW); 'Stats Tied' (ST)

[sup]1[/sup]Chicago Sun Bears deducted 2 wins for inactivity.
[sup]2[/sup]Caerphilly Saints deducted 1 win for inactivity.

Even though 2 of 3 relegated players are TBL mods?

Hey we don't play favourites around here - if you stink you're out! lol.

I've got tough decisions to make for keepers. Malkin or Sedin or Staal? D'oh!

[eric1985]

I've got tough decisions to make for keepers. Malkin or Sedin or Staal? D'oh!

Id take one off your hands if you see someone on my team you could use.

[batdad]

My keepers as it stands are:

C-Richards
LW-Marleau
RW-Iginla
D-Lidstrom
D-Seabrook
G-Luongo

However, I am looking to upgrade at C and D...I am willing to move my RW or LW keeper in the right circumstances to upgrade those spots since I have Rene Bourque sitting around, and could move Marleau to C if needed. Richards could be available at right price as could Iginla.

As for draft picks I like the idea upthread. We can make it simpler, and just complete the trades here on TBL totally. Not on the ESPN site at all. Just create a thread that you cannot edit...OFFSEASON TRADES CONFIRMED.

Since picks would have to be done off the ESPN site, anyway do it all off the ESPN site.

An example could be

Black ICe trades Iginla and 7th round pick to Phaneuf for Sedin and 3rd round pick. If we do it all off the ESPN site, the picks are negotiable...

We also have to make sure # of players and # of picks match up in the trades. Not trading two players for two picks...the idea here would be the two guys that would be dropped for the two incoming players just move to the other team in the trade.

IE

Black Ice trades his first round and second round pick and Peter Regin to Phaneuf for Henrik Sedin and Phaneufs 15th and 12th round pick

Not that those deals would happen CatchUp...but you guys get the idea right?

Do all our negotiation through email, PM...then confirm in the trade thread here. NOONE can edit the trade thread, and Commish still has to approve the deals in the trade thread here.

Objections to trades can also be voiced once BOTH trading partners have confirmed the move.

[eric1985]

The above sounds like a sound idea.

[bruins72]

I might have missed something but will ESPN allow us Stinson to re-assign draft picks? I'm sure he could move players between teams as commish but will it let him give 1 team an extra 1st round pick and lose a 3rd round pick while giving another team a 3rd round pick but losing their 1st?

[batdad]

Not sure about that. It is something we would have to work on for sure.

We may have to be sure that guys who trade picks are on the ESPN draft site at the time in order to tell the other guy they got the pick from who to select...and then we would have to manually move those guys after they are picked to the correct team.

So in my example...I have to be on the draft site for the 3rd round, CatchUp may have to be as well...in order for him to tell me who to pick for him when that choice comes up. SAme for the pick I send to him...etc.

This of course is something that could make things very difficult, and as talked about before is something that Stinson will have to look into...Is he able to change who is up next in the draft selection either during the draft or before the draft.

[bruins72]

Yeah, it does sound like it would complicate things. I like the idea of trading picks but the logistics sound like they're going to be a pain. If I made a trade today, how would I know if I'm going to be available to be there come for the live draft months from now?

The more I think of it, the more I'm not sure if we should be able to trade between now and the draft. I kind of think maybe we should just have our Keepers and not be able to use the rest of our roster to improve upon things. We all get to pick our best player at each position to carry over to next season. That should be it. Beyond that, we should all be starting over from ground zero.

[batdad]

The pain depends upon whether or not draft positions can be reassigned prior to or during the draft to the new teams. If they can be...no pain. If not...pain.

There is no problem trading now...we can trade now if it is not including draft picks. If it is...then there could be an issue.

So for right now..can only be player for player trades, because we do not know the outcome of how moved draft picks work. If they can be moved on the system, picks can be included...but we do not know that yet.

So offseason trading is a non issue without picks, could be with them. We may just not be able to trade picks this season.

I mean if I want to upgrade a spot in my keepers right now, and someone else does as well, and we do not involve draft picks...that is not a problem.

We need to set a deadline for keepers to be set for sure. But until that deadline is reached, we should still be allowed at least player for player trades. If ESPN allows for picks to be moved...that is fine as well. But I bet they do not.

Should be no problem for example with CatchUp wanting to deal and moving one of Sedin or Malkin to fill in a position in his weak keeper position. We can all try and do it. I mean I don't really want Seabrook to be a keeper D, and since I have too many LW/RW guys to keep...I don't see why I should not be allowed to move one for a better D.

The only question is picks.

[bruins72]

Should be no problem for example with CatchUp wanting to deal and moving one of Sedin or Malkin to fill in a position in his weak keeper position. We can all try and do it. I mean I don't really want Seabrook to be a keeper D, and since I have too many LW/RW guys to keep...I don't see why I should not be allowed to move one for a better D.

I don't know. It just doesn't feel right to me. If you drafted strongly, you've probably got a strong set of keepers already. But if you've got a really strong roster, you'll be able to strengthen it further to start off the next season even better. I thought the whole idea behind the keepers was to limit what we could use to strengthen our team moving into the next season. If you've got 2 top notch RWs and maybe 1 top center and another that's pretty good, you don't really care if you deal away that depth to another team to strengthen your defense. You were going to lose the 2nd RW and 2nd C anyhow.

Think of it in EHM terms. It's late-June and you're in charge of the Sharks. You've got Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau as centers. Thornton is under contract for next season but Marleau is a UFA with zero intention of re-signing with you. You could use a defenseman, so you decide to trade Marleau for one. The other team isn't going to give you much of anything for him because they'll lose him on July 1st too.

I see the keepers as players that you have under contract for the next season and everyone else is a UFA. You shouldn't be able to trade away guys you don't have under contract anymore.

I don't know if that really makes sense. I don't think I'm explaining myself well.

[bruins72]

Okay, here is an example that might make more sense because it's using players on our current rosters.

You've got these guys as your keepers right now...

C-Richards
LW-Marleau
RW-Iginla
D-Lidstrom
D-Seabrook
G-Luongo

Well you've got Quick as one of your non-keeper goalies and he's almost statistically as good as Luongo. You're going to lose him. Why not trade him towards a defenseman? So looking at my team, I've got Chara. He would be a huge addition to your team. You could trade me Seabrook, Quick, and Bourque for Chara, Morrison, and Dubinsky. Looking at this in a 3 players for 3 players way, you'd never do this if you were keeping your entire roster. You'd probably do it though if all you really cared about was acquiring Chara. You could really care less about who you got back in addition to Chara because you're losing them anyway. Then it unbalances things because where I had a weak set of keepers, I now have much more strength. Going into the next draft, you've got an insano set of keepers and where I should've been hurting, I'm now looking okay.

I just don't like how that shakes out.

[batdad]

No I know what you are saying... and I understand your worries. However, Noone is going to make a lopsided deal..

Using CatchUP's roster here: I am not getting Sedin for some scrub just because he cannot keep Sedin.

Try an example here...

In my mind here are my keepers:

Richards
Iginla
Marleau
Seabrook
Lidstrom
Luongo

Here are what I think Catchup should do for example:

Malkin
Gaborik
Heatley
Doughty
Rafalski
Ward

This leaves some good players for each of us available.

I see nothing wrong with us making a trade to help each make his keeper position stronger. (I could use your team but my weakspot is d and you are weak after Chara there as well). I feel my D keepers are weak, he feels he is strong there. I am strong in G keeper and he feels he is weak.

I would love to make my D stronger, and Catchup his goaltending...

So maybe he thinks quick or niemi are an upgrade in net over Ward. I think maybe Letang is an upgrade on D from Seabrook.

we could make a deal that helps both of us in our minds. Nothing wrong with that..

I send him Niemi and Seabrook for Letang and Gustafsson.

My keepers become

Richards
Marleau
Iginla
Lidstrom
Letang
Luongo


His become

Malkin
Heatley
Gaborik
Doughty
Rafalski
Niemi

This still leaves a good dman and a good goalie available in the draft that were not going to be available originally. Just different ones (At first it is Niemi and Letang) later it is Ward and Seabrook.

Not a big issue to me. Success next year is still going to depend on how you draft. I don't think regardless of just worrying about keepers that CatchUp would give me Malkin and Letang for Regin and Seabrook...guys are still gonna keep the value equal among themselves.

Oh and BTW..>I would think you would love trades considering how you drafted last year...

And yeah, if you are interested in upgrading to Bourque as a keeper or Iginla, or Marleau and willing to give me a good D man in return, and the rest balances a bit...sure...lets do it.

[B. Stinson]

I would love to see draft pick trading, so it's currently issue #1 for this off-season.

However, there are some concerns I have with it, and bruins pointed out one of them: uneven distribution of picks. Another problem is that I believe ESPN only allows the first round's order to be set manually, and then simply "serpentines" the remaining rounds.

These two problems would mean that if we were to trade draft picks, they would be limited to the first round only, and trades would have to include pick-for-pick.

But, with some slight manual labor like batdad suggests, I think we can get around these two issues, while not upsetting the ESPN system at all. From what I can envision, this idea is would allow 100% freedom in draft pick trading, with minimal offline management:

Team One and Team Two make a trade:

Team One gets: John Doe and Team Two's 2010 1st round pick
Team Two gets: Joe Schmoe and Team One's 2010 3rd round pick

Now, come time for the 2010 draft, Team Two's turn will arrive. When it does, the manager of Team One will simply announce in the draft chat (a feature of ESPN's Draft App) that he wants Bob White. The manager of Team Two will then select Bob White. Then when Team One is up to pick in the third round, Team Two will announce that they want Jane Doe, and Team One will pick Jane Doe.

Then after the draft is all said and done, I will be able move Bob White from Team Two to Team One, and Jane Doe from Team One to Team Two... thereby completing the effect of a draft pick trade. And of course we'll have a thread here at TBL to track the picks and who they belong to. I believe this should account for everything, allowing us to trade any picks from any round of any upcoming draft.

Possible issues:

1. Will there be enough time on the pick-clock for one manager to decide who he wants, communicate that to everyone, and then have the other manager find and select that player?

2. What if of of these managers isn't at the live draft? - In this case, one manager will still announce who he wants, and I'll take note of that so I can make the move after the draft. But since one GM is absent, the AI will end up picking whoever it wants. We'll simply ignore this selection, and deem that player to still be available. If someone then picks that player, they can announce it in the draft chat, and I'll take note of it so I can move him to that roster after the draft. If it's the other way around, where the absent manager is the one who needs to announce who he wants? Then I think that'll have to be tough luck for him, and he won't be able to get his pick.

Hopefully that makes any sense at all...?

[batdad]

Heh..you were doing an example same time as me.

No...inbalanced deals like the one you put out still not part of the plan. No way. no how.

And yeah if I wanted Chara I would have to give up alot. But

1/ You would not do it, because Chara is your keeper D.
2/ I would not do it, because I would lose my shot at getting Bourque back in the draft or Quick or so and so as you would have him on your roster as a keeper.

I think the balance is still there. Noone is going to sell out. I still would love to get Rene back in the draft. So I would not sell him without getting equal value back in the deal in terms of my keeper...certainly would rather have a shot at getting Bourque in the draft than Dubinsky or Morrison.

See what I mean there...Who are your keepers?

My guess:

Spezza
Huselius
Dumont
Chara
Bogosian
Nabokov

So you would be willing to part with Chara to solidify a couple other spots. You would love to make that deal you listed above. and there is nothing wrong with it.

I mean if I offered you Seabrook, Bourque and Morrow for Bergeron, Chara and Huselius..why is it not helping you as much as me? Why is it not fair?

You get two spots filled in to be stronger and I have my weakspot filled in. You are happy, I am happy. Who does it hurt? Noone.

Your keepers get better, my keepers get better. Still good guys left in draft, as now Bergeron goes into draft as does Huselius. You then put Morrow and Bourque in your keeper wing spots, and Dumont also goes into draft. Not a big issue in my mind. Still good players, just different ones,.

I know..worried about a guy dealing a Chara like player for nothing. But why would he? We are not EHM managers.

[B. Stinson]

Not sure about that. It is something we would have to work on for sure.

We may have to be sure that guys who trade picks are on the ESPN draft site at the time in order to tell the other guy they got the pick from who to select...and then we would have to manually move those guys after they are picked to the correct team.

So in my example...I have to be on the draft site for the 3rd round, CatchUp may have to be as well...in order for him to tell me who to pick for him when that choice comes up. SAme for the pick I send to him...etc.

This of course is something that could make things very difficult, and as talked about before is something that Stinson will have to look into...Is he able to change who is up next in the draft selection either during the draft or before the draft.

This is exactly what I'm talking about! Simply have one GM tell the other who he wants to pick, and I'll manually complete the move after the draft.

As for on-the-fly order changes: I can't say for sure, but I would bet that it's not allowed.

[batdad]

Blah..my ramblings brutally confusing. I want to delete them.

I think B72 is concerned guys are going to dump a Malkin type player for a Seabrook type player just to fill a slot in their keeper hole.

I do not think this is the case..why?

1. I still want a shot at good players in the draft. So Malkin if he was mine..not going for anything unless it is equal value.

2. We can still veto deals if they are clearly people being dumb.

if I decide Bourque is my keeper, Iginla becomes available. Lots of guys are going to want him...but I am going to make sure I get something back in return. Not just Letang. Iginla-Letang? No way no how. I want it to be

Iginla and my 5th rounder (or Iginla/Regin) for Letang and his 2nd (or Malkin). Yeah maybe I end up keeping Malkin and Letang..but then Richards goes into the draft, or Marleau...

No matter what..if we keep # of players even..good players are going to the draft.

[bruins72]

I just don't think we're going to see it the same way, b-diddy. I just didn't expect to see trading of players to strengthen keeper position. I honestly thought that we would each pick our 6 keepers from who we finished the season with and then everyone else would go back in the draft. And what about the idea about the second league and those teams not being able to draft our keepers? So the chances of them getting to draft a real game changer have decreased?

[batdad]

BTW...I have two trade offers out there. One with CatchUp and one with Lidas...

I will even tell you the offers here as examples. Note: These deals only work if Catchp or Lidas believe they are upgrading there Goalie keeper. I upgrade my D in both cases.


With Catchup:

Malkin, Letang, Giguere for Richards, Seabrook and Niemi or Quick

I upgrade my D and C...and Catchup has a choice between Richards, Sedin (note: Malkin and Richards have VERY similar stats and the upgrade is my opinion. If Catchup believes that Letang-Seabrook is a wash, and Niemi or quick is upgrade on Bryz or Ward...it could leave in the draft available:

Richards, Seabrook, Ward, Bryz, Quick or Niemi, Gustafsson

The way it is now...in the draft are

Malkin, Letang, Bryz, Gustafsson, Quick, Niemi,

Still the same quality of guys available...

A simpler example is what I have going with Lidas.

I give up Seabrook and Niemi or Quick for Kronwall and Mason.

I believe Kronwall is upgrade over Seabrook. Lidas if he believes Quick or Niemi is upgrade over Anderson or Vokoun. IMHO Lidas D keepers right now are Kronwall and Phaneuf. Jovo is out. My D keepers are Lidstrom/Seabrook.

In the draft now IMHO are Niemi, Quick, Vokoun, Mason, Jovonovski
In the draft after trade are: Niemi (or Quick),Anderson, Vokoun, Mason, and either Jovo or Seabrook (depends on who he keeps)

Do I think either of these deals will go through? no. Do I want one to? yes. Does it hurt the draft or the other teams? Not really, just shuffles which players are available. Same # of guys still avail in draft, just different players.

BTW--I will cancel these offers if we want to hold off on deals for the moment.

All it does is change the goalies in the draft, and maybe a Dman.


I really do not see how it changes anyone elses chance to get good players? just different ones. In each case, good players are still left available for the draft.

[B. Stinson]

Just to weigh-in on the trading debate: I'm with batdad, I don't think we should see any problems with it. Of course, draft pick trading is in fact off-limits until we can confidently say something will work without much complication.

But as long as we stick to the trading we've been doing all along, I think we should be fine. As commissioner I can reject any trade, so shady deals won't make it very far.
---

As far as a keeper deadline goes, that will be one week before our draft. And the draft will be one week before the NHL season begins. So the keeper deadline will probably be middle to late September, with both League 1 and League 2 drafts being in late September.

Immediately after the keeper deadline, I'll publish the list of League 1 keepers here at TBL so our League 2 GM's will know who they cannot select in their draft.

[kuulapaa]

I really do not see how it changes anyone elses chance to get good players? just different ones. In each case, good players are still left available for the draft.

Of course it changes things. Let's say I have three great Ds, all keeper worth and no great RWs. If there isn't trading before keeper deadline, I'll have to let one of those Dmen to go, but if I can trade him for a keeper RW there will possibly be a decent RW and a decent Dman released when in the other situation there would've been a keeper D (and possibly a keeper RW also) in draft available. There will be good players available though, but we are allowed to fix our teams to keep the best ones.

What comes to trading draft picks, I am not against it, but I'm afraid it gets all too complicated if we try. BTW, is the draft order already set? It would be something I would want to know if I traded picks, I think it matters especially in high ones.

One thing about the keepers. I'm not going to lock them yet, as I'm not comfortable doing it so long before the deadline. There are some players I'm not sure if I keep or not and if some of them gets injured long term or traded to another team, it will affect in my decision - even improvement or worsening of the whole NHL team's roster could affect. To be honest this off season trading was something I had not in my plans - I was going to have a looong and peaceful off season before getting back in business in September.

[Manimal]

2. What if of of these managers isn't at the live draft? - In this case, one manager will still announce who he wants, and I'll take note of that so I can make the move after the draft. But since one GM is absent, the AI will end up picking whoever it wants. We'll simply ignore this selection, and deem that player to still be available. If someone then picks that player, they can announce it in the draft chat, and I'll take note of it so I can move him to that roster after the draft. If it's the other way around, where the absent manager is the one who needs to announce who he wants? Then I think that'll have to be tough luck for him, and he won't be able to get his pick.

I see more problems with this. If another GM(not involved in the trade) is absent from the draft but has setup a pre-draft list with the player the AI picks, then he would not get the chance to draft him even if he's still available to the GM's at the draft

[McQwak]

I would love to see draft pick trading, so it's currently issue #1 for this off-season.

Just for info: fantasy baseball allows trading picks. So ESPN knows how to do it...

[Manimal]

Apparently it's available in Custom Hockey leagues, too! http://games.espn.go.com/fhl/content?pa ... custom2010

[CatchUp]

One thing about the keepers. I'm not going to lock them yet, as I'm not comfortable doing it so long before the deadline. There are some players I'm not sure if I keep or not and if some of them gets injured long term or traded to another team, it will affect in my decision - even improvement or worsening of the whole NHL team's roster could affect. To be honest this off season trading was something I had not in my plans - I was going to have a looong and peaceful off season before getting back in business in September.

These are my thoughts exactly. If we do allow trading of keepers during the offseason, it's not happening for me until a couple of days before I have to set them. Who knows - Cam Ward could get traded to San Jose. I wouldn't see him as needing and upgrade after that.

Also, I'm feeling pretty comfy where I am. I have wingers and one D set (Heater / Gabby / Doughty) and lots of good options at the other positions. Ward or Bryz? Rafalski or Johnson? And the big one - Malkin or Sedin?

[batdad]

Noone said that it would not be difficult to make a trade, with or without picks. Value for value still obviously. THat is why I don't think its an issue that you would see someone make a F for D trade straight up, unless it was say Iginla for Mike Green or something like that. Anyone really think someone is going to give me my Coveted defenseman for Peter Regin? Trades are still going to be balanced..and you would still see good players in the draft. Maybe slightly different players...but all of us can still protect the same # of players in each position...which means the same # of quality players are available come the draft.

Everyone has a value on their players...obviously.

You can change your keepers whenever you want. I have put them on and off and changed them 20 times this season. It is a non issue as to when you set your keepers. I could still change my mind on the last day without any issue.

People are just starting to worry that the trading will be too easy for people to upgrade. It will not. It is just the same. I have done this before...whether you are worried just about keepers or 20 man rosters...the deals just balance out.

I understand the issue on trading picks being a concern...that is an obvious one and lots of things can go wrong. But with proper diligence..something I Have the confidence Stinson and ourselves will have, it should not be a major issue.

If we decide no pick trading...fine by me. But people should be allowed to make deals if they wish and can find a partner who is willing to do the deal. That is a non issue. No one is giving up their Ovenchicken for Vesa Toskala.

Anyone really think any of the active users are that dumb?

If someone makes a deal...it is because they see value in it for themselves, not because they are helping the other guy.

Draft order will be reverse finish of the standings I would assume...just like any league in any sport that has a draft. Marsac would be last, I would be 2nd last if you go by playoff order. Worst reg season finishes after those two..just like the real NHL>