Russia (including all KHL teams)

[Peter_Doherty]

He looks likely to play in the upcoming playoffs, so we'll see then i guess

I'd play the better goalie, and yes, i think Shestyorkin is the better goalie.

[nino33]

Moreover, Nino, correct me if I'm wrong, a CA of 138 should be ok for the top goalies of the league, maybe it's even low.

Agreed/seems OK to me

I think that having goalies highly rated in the KHL is not wrong, considering the excellent goalies pipeline Russia has had in the recent years and seems to have.

I really didn't realize there was such a pipeline HaHa

I recognize Bobrovsky's been a decent NHL goalie, but I personally have never been a fan of his...for me (and I recognize many would disagree) Vasilevskiy is still unproven and has benefited by being behind Bishop (and this year, with the talk of moving Bishop and Vasilevskiy becoming the undisputed number one, Vasilevskiy's stats have dropped).....Varlamov is another guy who seems to have played poorer as time goes by



I think though my opinion may be affected by what goalies used to be...they used to be important, they use to actually win you games, and a top team had to have a very good or better goaltender but I don't believe that's the case anymore - IMO in modern hockey they're far less important (and they're all about the same, there isn't much of a gap between slightly above Average/Good/Top goalies & the Good/Top goalies rarely maintain their position year-after-year.....and so called top goalies can lose in the playoffs/important tournaments while winning teams can have slightly above Average to Good goalies and win)

I think in EHM it'd be cool/helpful if there was a "Career Consistency" Attribute that represented how good a goalie was not from game-to-game (like Consistency does) but rather from year-to-year - nowadays it really does seem the actual "Top" goalies can change year-to-year, and guys can go from "above Good" to "below Good" year-to-year

[Alessandro]

I think in EHM it'd be cool/helpful if there was a "Career Consistency" Attribute that represented how good a goalie was not from game-to-game (like Consistency does) but rather from year-to-year - nowadays it really does seem the actual "Top" goalies can change year-to-year, and guys can go from "above Good" to "below Good" year-to-year

Yes, as well as "one-timers", "backwards skating" and "composure in front of the net".

[Peter_Doherty]

Definitely agree on the 'Career Consistency' bit, there are very few year-to-year consistent goalies in this league, pretty much only Lundqvist

[nino33]

I think in EHM it'd be cool/helpful if there was a "Career Consistency" Attribute that represented how good a goalie was not from game-to-game (like Consistency does) but rather from year-to-year - nowadays it really does seem the actual "Top" goalies can change year-to-year, and guys can go from "above Good" to "below Good" year-to-year

Yes, as well as "one-timers", "backwards skating" and "composure in front of the net".

What do you mean by "composure in front of the net" (not disagreeing, truly wondering what that means)

[Alessandro]

I think in EHM it'd be cool/helpful if there was a "Career Consistency" Attribute that represented how good a goalie was not from game-to-game (like Consistency does) but rather from year-to-year - nowadays it really does seem the actual "Top" goalies can change year-to-year, and guys can go from "above Good" to "below Good" year-to-year

Yes, as well as "one-timers", "backwards skating" and "composure in front of the net".

What do you mean by "composure in front of the net" (not disagreeing, truly wondering what that means)

I think it's a rating present in FM, kind of being cool-headed in front of an empty net for example

[nino33]

I'd like to see something that represented the ability to make plays/think "quickly" - something that could be used to separate the style of play in North American compared to Europe/Russia (based on ice size), so that the talent/skill could be given to players (mostly European/Russian) that can play on the big ice but struggle on the smaller ice (because they don't have the time they're used to).....and lower CA players with a higher rating in this "making plays/thinking quickly" could make the "off the glass and in/out" plays that they make in NA but would lack the skill to do much more on bug ice)

I like the one timers idea a lot, and backward skating would probably be helpful too (especially in connection to play on bigger ice - even if it didn't show on the 2D it could be there in the coding, so D who are poorer at skating backwards would get beat wide more often).....the composure in front of the net could be maybe used to separate those with talent who consistently produce and those with talent who don't? Again, a way of differentiating the higher talent players

I'd really like to see the 2D rink be made just bigger/wider enough to be noticeable (to represent the big ice)

[Alessandro]

I'd like to see something that represented the ability to make plays/think "quickly" - something that could be used to separate the style of play in North American compared to Europe/Russia (based on ice size)

Another solid suggestion...
Nino, what about packing all this things and sending Riz a message? I'm sure it can be squeezed between your numbers games.

[Alessandro]

the composure in front of the net could be maybe used to separate those with talent who consistently produce and those with talent who don't?

I see it as slightly different from "consistency". Afinogenov, for example, it's notorious (at least in Russia) not to be able to score from one meter. He was even got in a TV commercial with this popular "joke" (I think that being able to be humorous about himself at such a level makes him a great human being). I don't think it's "inconsistency" nor "poor shooting", just more something like he looses his cool in front of the net.

[nino33]

I'd like to see something that represented the ability to make plays/think "quickly" - something that could be used to separate the style of play in North American compared to Europe/Russia (based on ice size)

Another solid suggestion...
Nino, what about packing all this things and sending Riz a message? I'm sure it can be squeezed between your numbers games.

Yeah, that's kinda why I'm indulging in this conversation and getting your thoughts - I've actually never posted in the "Wish List" thread! HaHa

To be honest, I wanted to ensure that I had a good package of thoughtful ideas (presented in an organized/coherent way) when I emailed Riz, and what we're doing here is exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking I want to present to him (I've always had "one timers" in the back of my head, as I recall you mentioning it a long time ago)

I've had such conversations with others too (like CJ)

It's on my list of things to do

[Peter_Doherty]

Just to tie up our discussion earlier, Corey Pronman on ESPN just released his mid season prospect ranking, Igor Shestyorkin was ranked as the 4th best goalie prospect after Samsonov, Sorokin and Hart.

[Alessandro]

Just to tie up our discussion earlier, Corey Pronman on ESPN just released his mid season prospect ranking, Igor Shestyorkin was ranked as the 4th best goalie prospect after Samsonov, Sorokin and Hart.

Still put him behind Sorokin and Samsonov

[CJ]

Those three Russian goalies are sick!

I don't think it's "inconsistency" nor "poor shooting", just more something like he looses his cool in front of the net.

Actually we could split the human attributes to thousands. There's always something we can't do in EHM so we have to improvise. A slap/wrist shot in game means how hard + how accurate, and there's probably other factors too, to a shot than just those two.

[nino33]

To be honest, I wouldn't recommend such an Attribute myself...I think there's so few players that it would affect, it's just not relevant IMO; I don't think there's any players I can think of in 40+ years that meet the criteria of noticeably unable to bang it in from a few feet away (some might be better than others, like Phil Esposito scoring "garbage goals" but that wasn't from just the crease area, that was from 15-20 feet and in - an "in general" good scoring position)

I do think something that represents the ability to score or not from "a good scoring position" might be helpful (some examples would be the slot, backdoor plays maybe, cross ice one-timers, pass receiver on a 2-on-1, etc)

I also think separating shot power, shot accuracy, and shot distance would be a great addition too

[Peter_Doherty]

Just to tie up our discussion earlier, Corey Pronman on ESPN just released his mid season prospect ranking, Igor Shestyorkin was ranked as the 4th best goalie prospect after Samsonov, Sorokin and Hart.

Still put him behind Sorokin and Samsonov

Sure, which i somewhat disagree with, atleast Samsonov. But reading his comments and it feels like he has a distinct top 4 then there is a gap to #5, i could be wrong here though.
Still it shows that i'm not the only one who thinks Shestyorkin is a top goalie prospect in the world

[Alessandro]

Just to tie up our discussion earlier, Corey Pronman on ESPN just released his mid season prospect ranking, Igor Shestyorkin was ranked as the 4th best goalie prospect after Samsonov, Sorokin and Hart.

Still put him behind Sorokin and Samsonov

Sure, which i somewhat disagree with, atleast Samsonov. But reading his comments and it feels like he has a distinct top 4 then there is a gap to #5, i could be wrong here though.
Still it shows that i'm not the only one who thinks Shestyorkin is a top goalie prospect in the world

I'm frankly not that sold on Samsonov either.
But also, did you see yesterday the game between Dynamo and CSKA? IMHO there Sorokin was outplayed by Yeryomenko (still Sorokin obviously played great), that is what I meant with experience. And look at who has more shutouts... Of course Dynamo plays a good old defensive style, but the team's roster is not even comparable to CSKA or SKA or Metallurg.
That being said, I bumped up Shestyorkin's CA for the next update. PA, I'm not sure, I think -7 is good. With -7 he can get 130-140 which means he can play in the NHL

[nino33]

Shestyorkin, Samsonov and Sorokin...hmmm I guess that's some evidence of that pipeline that was mentioned

[Alessandro]

Shestyorkin, Samsonov and Sorokin...hmmm I guess that's some evidence of that pipeline that was mentioned

We also have Sukhachyov 98-born
All with S

[Peter_Doherty]

Alessandro - I just don't get why Samsonov and Sorokin deserve a higher PA then Shestyorkin, they're at -8 and -14 while Shesty is at -7, feels really wrong.

Also think Samsonov is the most likely of them to not become great so i would swap him to -14 and Sorokin to -8 since he's imo more likely to be a great goalie. Sorokin -8, Samsonov -14, Shestyorkin -8/-14 is really fair imo bur ur the boss i guess, i can just give you my reasoning and hope you agree

[CJ]

Alessandro - I just don't get why Samsonov and Sorokin deserve a higher PA then Shestyorkin, they're at -8 and -14 while Shesty is at -7, feels really wrong.

Also think Samsonov is the most likely of them to not become great so i would swap him to -14

Where do you get this from? I totally disagree. Could even go to a -9 for him.

-7 is very common for a 4th rounder.

[Peter_Doherty]

Alessandro - I just don't get why Samsonov and Sorokin deserve a higher PA then Shestyorkin, they're at -8 and -14 while Shesty is at -7, feels really wrong.

Also think Samsonov is the most likely of them to not become great so i would swap him to -14

Where do you get this from? I totally disagree. Could even go to a -9 for him.

-7 is very common for a 4th rounder.

Get what from? The numbers? It's what nino posted earlier in the thread. -9 for Samsonov? He's showed nothing that says he's a better prospect then Sorokin/Shestyorkin.

[Peter_Doherty]

Personally i would have these 3 guys as the best goalie prospects in the world, all 3 at -9/-15 but i'm not the boss here

[nino33]

Alessandro - I just don't get why Samsonov and Sorokin deserve a higher PA then Shestyorkin, they're at -8 and -14 while Shesty is at -7, feels really wrong.

Also think Samsonov is the most likely of them to not become great so i would swap him to -14

Where do you get this from? I totally disagree. Could even go to a -9 for him.

-7 is very common for a 4th rounder.

Get what from? The numbers? It's what nino posted earlier in the thread. -9 for Samsonov? He's showed nothing that says he's a better prospect then Sorokin/Shestyorkin.

I said I'd never heard of him, and said "Perhaps Igor Shestyorkin should have a -14 PA?" (given I'd never heard of him and I simply asked a question I don't think I said anything that was really supportive of an increase - the reality is Shestyorkin is a 4th round pick, and he is having his first good season amongst men playing behind a top team) + I made it clear I defer to Alessandro on the KHL (and I defer to CJ on anything NHL related, including prospects)

My ideas and opinions (strong they may often be) are virtually always on the theory/structure/concepts of editing and pretty much never about arguing specific modern players (I believe I have the knowledge to argue "retro players" for sure, but not modern players...in this case I'd never heard of Shestyorkin!); I don't believe anything that Alessandro/CJ have expressed here goes against the "theory/structure/concepts of editing" as I understand them

[CJ]

Get what from? The numbers? It's what nino posted earlier in the thread. -9 for Samsonov? He's showed nothing that says he's a better prospect then Sorokin/Shestyorkin.

I mean from your own statement: "Also think Samsonov is the most likely of them to not become great"

Well I think Samsonov is playing as good as the other two + he is 2 years younger (only 19) and a first round pick, highest drafted goalie since Andrei Vasilevsky (-9). That's why I was wondering why he would be worse than the other two, which is why I said I disagree.

I've seen all three play but it's not like I follow all games of theirs. I'm just stating this out of experience of hockey and EHM.

[Peter_Doherty]

nino - I meant that i took their actual PA numbers from you, didn't put words in your mouth, sorry for the confusion

CJ - While Samsonov is younger he's also not posting as good numbers and there is nothing in his game that screams to me that he's the better prospect. I think that all 3 are pretty even honestly, they're all right there at the top. Their draft position shouldn't really matter too much since drafting goalies is pretty much voodoo. My biggest issue here is that the 3 are separated by too much.

Wish we had some more stats then just SV% to go on though, sure would help a lot to have shot quality to filter their stats through. But as it looks now it's just wrong to have them separated by much at all, i think Samsonov should have a bigger range in PA then the other 2 while having about the same ceiling.