EHM The Blue Line

philou21 wrote:

CJ wrote:

philou21 wrote:Nino is blind it seems!

Not blind. Just old.

Shots fired!

I resemble that remark!

Hahahaaa

Beaulieu got traded to Buffalo for a third round pick. Not a bit surprise for me. I knew Beaulieu already had a feet outside the team and with what I mentionned yesterday it proves my point a bit. It's also a strategic move for the expansion draft as they're not losing Beaulieu for nothing and it force LV to maybe pick Emelin or Pleckanec.

Most of the proctections lists are making sense. I'm just a bit sad that Florida isn't protecting Marchessault but seeing the prospects they have it's logical too.

The two things I'm most curious to see are how many picks will LV have (rumors have them up to at least 3 first rounders so far just not to pick certain players), and (very hopeful fandom) Mrazek and Smith going to Calgary keep Fluery in LV. Decent forwards on the Pittsburgh not protected list (protecting 4 D surprised me after they asked Fluery to waive his NMC for the draft... something here is more than meets the eye.)

FYI here's an article with a team-by-team listing of who's been protected and who has not http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl ... -1.4166262

I'm really surprised Detroit isn't protecting Mrazek. I thought he was still in their plans.

I don't think it really makes a difference as there seems to be a tonne of goalies that have been made available. But, you're right. If anything you'd think Detroit would have made Howard available.

stone169 wrote:I don't think it really makes a difference as there seems to be a tonne of goalies that have been made available. But, you're right. If anything you'd think Detroit would have made Howard available.

Number of things there.

Last offseason DET fired long-time goalie coach Jim Bedard and promoted a Grand Rapids goalie coach who had worked with Mrazek before obviously. The move was a shock, because Bedard was WELL-respected by everyone and he is still adored in the greater Detroit area (in fact given Mrazek's poor play, there's been a movement from some fans to petition to get Bedard back, but I think he's moving to another NHL org now). The statement the move made was basically that DET was going to give Mrazek every chance to claim and hold the #1 position.

However, reports have come out that Mrazek voiced displeasure at the org last season when they didn't move Howard, and then Mrazek wasn't good this past season, even with his buddy goalie coach. Also, he apparently played a little too hardball in his last negotiations of a bridge deal and that has not been forgotten. Howard on the other hand rebounded and played well, and stayed professional through the whole process.

I don't think DET thinks they would have lost either Howard or Mrazek given the other goalies available (and their cap hits). So what this essentially is, is DET attempting a wake-up call to Mrazek that he's not the superstar bona fide #1 he maybe seems to think he is right now. DET can't just dump Mrazek though, because Coreau is *not* ready as an NHL goalie. Even in the AHL Calder Cup Finals he was pretty shaky at crucial times, and he also isn't eating pucks as well or reliably as he needs to be (read; he gives up bad rebounds too often). So they still have to hope Mrazek gets his head on straight, but if he doesn't they will merrily hitch their wagon to Howard (whose body of work is greater and better, despite the age).

Primis wrote:

stone169 wrote:I don't think it really makes a difference as there seems to be a tonne of goalies that have been made available. But, you're right. If anything you'd think Detroit would have made Howard available.

Number of things there.

Last offseason DET fired long-time goalie coach Jim Bedard and promoted a Grand Rapids goalie coach who had worked with Mrazek before obviously. The move was a shock, because Bedard was WELL-respected by everyone and he is still adored in the greater Detroit area (in fact given Mrazek's poor play, there's been a movement from some fans to petition to get Bedard back, but I think he's moving to another NHL org now). The statement the move made was basically that DET was going to give Mrazek every chance to claim and hold the #1 position.

However, reports have come out that Mrazek voiced displeasure at the org last season when they didn't move Howard, and then Mrazek wasn't good this past season, even with his buddy goalie coach. Also, he apparently played a little too hardball in his last negotiations of a bridge deal and that has not been forgotten. Howard on the other hand rebounded and played well, and stayed professional through the whole process.

I don't think DET thinks they would have lost either Howard or Mrazek given the other goalies available (and their cap hits). So what this essentially is, is DET attempting a wake-up call to Mrazek that he's not the superstar bona fide #1 he maybe seems to think he is right now. DET can't just dump Mrazek though, because Coreau is *not* ready as an NHL goalie. Even in the AHL Calder Cup Finals he was pretty shaky at crucial times, and he also isn't eating pucks as well or reliably as he needs to be (read; he gives up bad rebounds too often). So they still have to hope Mrazek gets his head on straight, but if he doesn't they will merrily hitch their wagon to Howard (whose body of work is greater and better, despite the age).

I don't follow Detroit like many others here Sarnia, since I'm a transplanted Sens fan. I just know him from his time with the Ottawa 67s and whenever he's been in nets against the Sens. That's kind of what I was going by.

Geez though. That's quite the off ice distraction going on in Detroit.

stone169 wrote:Geez though. That's quite the off ice distraction going on in Detroit.

It's not that bad honestly compared to circuses in other teams around the league.

But it is unusual by Detroit standards. Egos tend to not make an appearance. Some years ago after the Wings re-signed Dan Cleary, Tomas Tatar got REALLY upset in camp and.... people noticed. Tatar made insinuations he might go back to Europe. It died down though, he stuck it out, won a Calder Cup in Grand Rapids, and is now a Detroit regular.

Those sort of things are few and far between. Chris Illitch is not his father in the least. However, it's entirely possible he does share his father's distaste for prima donnas (one of the reasons Fedorov has been demonized so badly after leaving and there was never consideration of retiring his #91 while Mike Illitch was still alive). We'll see I guess.

The thing that kills me about the whole Vegas expansion draft is how fans of all kinds of teams are acting like losing one single player off their roster is the end of the world. One. Single. Player.

People with good teams with lots of good players are maybe freaking out but here in MTL people can't wait to see if Emelin or Plekanec will be taken. They want both of them out because of their salary!

Primis wrote:

stone169 wrote:Geez though. That's quite the off ice distraction going on in Detroit.

It's not that bad honestly compared to circuses in other teams around the league.

But it is unusual by Detroit standards. Egos tend to not make an appearance. Some years ago after the Wings re-signed Dan Cleary, Tomas Tatar got REALLY upset in camp and.... people noticed. Tatar made insinuations he might go back to Europe. It died down though, he stuck it out, won a Calder Cup in Grand Rapids, and is now a Detroit regular.

Those sort of things are few and far between. Chris Illitch is not his father in the least. However, it's entirely possible he does share his father's distaste for prima donnas (one of the reasons Fedorov has been demonized so badly after leaving and there was never consideration of retiring his #91 while Mike Illitch was still alive). We'll see I guess.

The thing that kills me about the whole Vegas expansion draft is how fans of all kinds of teams are acting like losing one single player off their roster is the end of the world. One. Single. Player.

Trust me I know. Some Sens fans (at least the ones who jumped on the bandwagon this year) are already saying goodbye to Methot. He's been great playing along side Karlsson, but realistically anyone looks great partnered up with Karlsson. I remember Andy Sutton looked like a top 2 defenceman when he was partnered with Karlsson during his rookie season. But there are much better and younger defensemen that have been made available.

A way to treat Doan, Arizona.

I know right? I feel bad but at the same time the guy is 41 and made 27 pts last year...time to make some place for younger guys. I could've offered him a place in the staff though. Maybe he could sign with Winnipeg?

I thought that they were going to offer him a front office job? That's a really naff thing to do to a player who's been with the team since the Winnipeg Jets days. And has stuck with the team through a lot of lean times.

They have offered him a front-office job

Yeah, the problem is not how Arizona is treating Doan. The problem is Doan is not understanding/accepting his playing career is quite over, whether he's ready or not. Arizona accommodated him enough.

I keep hearing how there's good players for Vegas to pick, but I don't see them myself

Based on what I see as "available" I think Vegas will be like any other expansion team - awful. I think they're going to really, really struggle to score

Manimal wrote:They have offered him a front-office job

Glad to know that.

From the "simulation" I've seen of what Vegas could look like I think the team could be decent. Offensively it might not be that strong but they could definitely be better than teams like Colorado and the Coyotes.

I think if Vegas picks all the best available players(without side deals), they will have a very solid defensive core with good goaltending options.

nino33 wrote:Based on what I see as "available" I think Vegas will be like any other expansion team - awful. I think they're going to really, really struggle to score

The league is already watered down enough right now I think (not enough scoring and good d-men to go around in many cases), and Vegas got very favorable expansions rules compared to any previous expansion teams. In particular, the defensemen available are light years beyond what say Atlanta, Minnesota, or Columbus got to pick from. So I can very much see Vegas not ever being traditional Expansion Bad right at first (unless they want to be to gather draft picks, in which case it's a choice). But they won't be competing for playoffs soon still.

I could totally see Vegas outperform 2 or 3 other NHL teams this coming season.

Primis wrote:I could totally see Vegas outperform 2 or 3 other NHL teams this coming season.

Me too

Primis wrote: The league is already watered down enough right now I think (not enough scoring and good d-men to go around in many cases), and Vegas got very favorable expansions rules compared to any previous expansion teams. In particular, the defensemen available are light years beyond what say Atlanta, Minnesota, or Columbus got to pick from. So I can very much see Vegas not ever being traditional Expansion Bad right at first (unless they want to be to gather draft picks, in which case it's a choice). But they won't be competing for playoffs soon still.

I agree Vegas got favorable rules, but since (IMO) there's not enough talent to support so many teams (I think they could easily lose a third) having favorable selections of average players still doesn't give you much of a team IMO

When using the Thrashers (11 years, never won a playoff game) or the Blue Jackets (16 years, 3 playoff wins) as examples even the long term bar for success is really low! That'll help Vegas too HaHa

The Wild have done much, much better (16 years, 25 playoff wins).....but still nowhere near a "successful" team IMO
Nashville (23 years, 42 playoff wins) saw their playoff win numbers improve this year
Florida (23 years, 18 playoff wins) is also not impressive
Anaheim has done the best on the ice (23 years, 91 playoff wins, 2 SCF appearances/one win)

For comparison purposes, some other examples...Edmonton (last 23 years 37 playoff wins), Toronto (last 23 years 71 playoff wins), NY Islanders (last 23 years 25 playoff wins)


Short term I don't see Vegas playing "exciting hockey" nor do I see them as a playoff team.....longer term (10-20 years or so) it seems the likelihood of significant success is low (as noted above); of all the teams listed above I think Vegas is maybe the least likely to be able to withstand long bouts of not winning/missing the playoffs


I really wonder if Vegas will actually last, or be another Atlanta...




P.S. I do think it'd be great if Riz could set up EHM so we could take over as the Vegas GM at this IRL point, and receive protected lists and try to sign free agents and then drafting your team of NHLers from unprotected players and then the amateur draft...I think it'd be pretty cool to be able to "build your team from scratch" in such a short period of time

nino33 wrote:I keep hearing how there's good players for Vegas to pick, but I don't see them myself

Based on what I see as "available" I think Vegas will be like any other expansion team - awful. I think they're going to really, really struggle to score

Yes well they'll get decent goalies and def. Scoring will be tough though. I think it will be the best expansion team I've seen in my life time.

Shipashev might cause some damage, as I guess he'll be the first line scorer. But you never know how the KHL players adjusts to the NHL.

CJ wrote:

nino33 wrote:I keep hearing how there's good players for Vegas to pick, but I don't see them myself

Based on what I see as "available" I think Vegas will be like any other expansion team - awful. I think they're going to really, really struggle to score

Yes well they'll get decent goalies and def. Scoring will be tough though. I think it will be the best expansion team I've seen in my life time.

With modern hockey and the "team defense" approach that's so systematic, I don't think a few OK defenseman and a goalie are going to help much - in today's game the best goalies look awful when their team D doesn't protect them from rebounds, cross ice passes, odd man rushes, etc

IMO nowadays you need real stars (who are almost always offensive) to be a real threat to win.....after that, the equipment/rules/systems all make most players about the same, and it's the team play (emphasize on team) that makes the difference

Except for MAF every player Vegas can pick is not a "top player" on their current team, and has never been a top NHL player.....I think a lot of players will find being "unprotected" in Vegas, and having to play against the opponents best more (without the help of stars from their former team) will show a lot of the players to be not as good without the protection of easier competition and a well established team D system


What I see in modern hockey now tells me that Vegas could easily seriously challenge for a playoff spot until the all-star break or later, and Nashville will probably never win 14 playoff games total for many years; except for players with elite scoring talent, all other players are pretty much interchangeable; modern NHL teams are so watered down it's as much or more due to luck than performance that causes one team to win and the other to lose (that helps Vegas a lot)

Who's the Vegas Head Coach? his coaching staff? I haven't been following along until very recently, so I don't know
I'd think that coaching staff is more important than the players, by a long shot...will they be able to implement systems and motivate the team to play a "perfect game" on a consistent, ongoing basis? Getting a team to "buy in" seems as big a challenge as ever to me.....