EHM The Blue Line

One of the things that I've noticed is the huge advantage that it is to have a young franchise goalie from the beginning of the game if you want to play long term. At least for me, none of the goalie prospects like Harding, Price, Toivonen, Raask, Ramo, Bernier, Pogge, etc really seem to develop into more than excellent backups/borderline starters. Therefore, I would want to start the game with a young, established starter. What is your experience with building your franchise around these guys. Specifically, I am looking for how consisten/reliable they are, how good in playoff/clutch games, and how injury prone:

Rick DiPietro
Ryan Miller
Cam Ward
Henrik Lundqvist
Kari Lehtonen
Marc-Andre Fleury
Antero Niittymakki

Obviously, Ward, Lehtonen and Fleury start at 21-23, whereas the others are 25 or 26 so that has to be a big factor too.

No doubt that Niittymäki is one of the best goalies in the game, and one who is easy to grab. Never had the others, so can't tell.

Btw, Price is awesome for me. In his rookie season with me (08-09) he had decent stats with 2.80 GAA and 90.0%, along with 2 shutouts and a 37-12-2 record. In the playoffs, he'd been a monster! A 16-6-0 record, 1.89 GAA, 92.4% and 4 shutouts, including one in the game 5 of the Finals to give us the Stanley Cup. The year before, while he was in AHL, he also had bigger playoffs than regular season, including 6 playoffs shutouts, with 5 in a row, sweeping a team all by himself! Not bad at ages 21 and 22

Henrik Lundqvist is like God in my game. Holds Vesina 7 years in a row!!! He's a SO specialist and is acapable of winning games by himself. From your list is clearly No.1 goalie (in my game) with C.Ward as my second choice. Costs "only" 4-5M per year. Good luck to you.

jdh79 wrote: Specifically, I am looking for how consisten/reliable they are, how good in playoff/clutch games, and how injury prone

Marty Turco is my man in EHM. He's okay during the season but he's wonderful during playoff, except he got a tendency to get injured during the playoff.

I've won the Cup with Dan Cloutier and with only one good offensive line. If you build a strong core of D and use your tactics well, you can win with just about anybody in goal. Dan had 2 shutouts and a GAA of over 3.00 during the regular season.

Having the best goalie helps a lot to win but it isn't automatic fun.

On a side note, Dan will become a free agent after 3 years as my goalie and I have 21 yr old Tyler Plante ready to step in next season. I expect a rocky first year with a strong career after that - see DiPietro's history career (the first few years), except with a better D ahead of him. I'm planning to trade for a 30 to 40 year old veteran with high influence to back him up. After 2 straight Stanley Cup, the third one could be a few years away. Hence the challenge, hence the fun!

I'm in my fifth year with the Islanders and DiPietro has been a solid #1 goalie for me. He has not developed into someone of the caliber of Brodeur in attributes or stats, but he's been pretty durable (only 2 injuries - about 2 weeks each time in 5 years) and he usually finishes the season with about an 8.5 rating. I've got a very young D right now, so his GAA usually hovers around 2.60 or so and he's in the .905-.915 save % range. Stats-wise he's been middle of the pack, but i think a lot of that is due to my young D corps who leave him out to dry often.

Of course I still have him signed for the next 4 years! I've also got Martin Biron signed as a backup now and he's a more than capable backup at 34.

I have been playing around with an Islanders dynasty the past few days and have played through 2 full seasons. I basically immediately dumped Yashin's contract to the Caps for Clymer and Chris Clark and then acquired Handzus (and extended him to 4 yrs @ 2 M) as a much cheaper replacement that should be 80% as good. I also immediately extended Blake, York, and Hunter because they are all underrated 2nd line type talents. I dealt off the rest of the older/expensive guys like Satan, Kozlov, Zhitnik Hill, etc. as teams started bugging me for them, focusing on getting prospects and draft picks. I was able to bring in Regehr, O'Sullivan, Seabrook, Frolik, and Tlutsky and drafted Van Riemsdyk, Petrecki, Ryan Wilson. The Hurricanes actually came to me unsolicited right before the deadline offering their 1st for Hill, which I obviously took.

DiPietro has been disappointing for me to the point I almost would like to dump his contract if I could get good value and try and sign someone else. Year 2, he put up a 2.95 GAA and .902 SV%, playing in front of the following d-core:

Regehr-Seabrook
Witt-Poti
Clymer-Martinek

All 4 lines showed as 4 stars or above for defense too, so I think he was the problem, not the personnel. I could see the team having trouble scoring goals, but with his talent, contract and support, I felt he should have been close to a Vezina contender.

What's worse is the guy seems to choke massively in the playoffs. Surprisingly, the team finished as 89 and 97 pts and the #8 seed both years, and both years he proceeded to put up <7 ratings in the playoffs, getting me swept in 4 games both times.

The problem with the Isles is their fan base sucks, so even if I have like 36m in total player salaries and have a winning team, they still regularly only get 12,000 fans unless it's a Rangers or Flyers game, which means they lose money left right and center. The other problem is no FA wants to sign there unless its the last resort, so I don't think I would be able to get a top goalie FA to sign there, and you don't see teams willing to trade top level goalies very often either. Therefore, seems like I will be stuck with Di Pietro for another 8 years LOL.

DiPietro is not automatically your real problem... I don't think he's a Vezina contender with the likes of Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Luongo or Niittymäki in the game. But he should do better for sure.

Your problem may come from your tactics or from your coaches. Then it may also really come from Rick, but players are not automatically the real cause of their own poor performances It seems that you have built a young team, so no matter their talent, they are young, and therefore prone to make mistakes. Give them time to learn.

As for DiPietro's playoffs performances... How many playoff games did he play before you took control of the team? He's still young for a goalie... Give him time to learn.

And the 4 stars in defense for your lines doesn't mean a lot. It just gives an idea about the defensive potential of each lines. But then if you don't use this potential wise enough through tactics and personnal instructions, you'll be closer of 1 or 2 stars. Those rating stars aren't on the ice. Players are. So focus on how you use your players

It definitely wasn't because of players being too young; almost all of my prospects on that team were still playing in AHL/juniors.

Here was the top 2 lines:

York-Handzus-Blake
Clark-O'Sullivan-Hunter

Only O'Sullivan out of that group had less than 5 years of NHL experience. The bottom lines had some combination of Bates, Sillinger, Ortmeyer, Betts, Dingman, Hagman (I love picking up checking liners and stashing them as AI teams waive them). And the tactics were similar tactics that have worked well on other teams before (modifying them of course for personal tactics for some of the players I had).

What gets me is the .902 save percentage, as well as the fact that I seemed to be consistently outshooting the other team even though those top 2 lines should have been average to below average offensively. And, I believe that those 2 years were his first playoff experience, but come on, 5 years in the league and a 4.5 M/year contract and you can't do better than 0-8 record, 4.68 GAA and .785 SV%? Both series were against the ridiculous Flyers, but still. I still blame diPietro.

The fact that your tactics set worked well in past games with other teams and players doesn't mean it will automatically work well with this team, players and staff. Plus, if you use the same tactics all year long, other teams will learn it, make plans to easily counter it, and just demolish you coming playoffs time.

As for DiPietro playoffs stats, 5 years in the league and a 4.5M$ contract just doesn't mean anything at all when it's playoffs time. Playoffs are another world in the hockey sphere, and he now has just 8 games of experience into this new game. Sure, his playoffs stats clearly suck! Maybe he just can't handle the pressure. Or maybe your defense can't handle the pressure and let him way too exposed. Facing just 20 shots is one thing, but if 10 of them are breakaways, don't expect miracles...

I did some quick testing on this that just proves how awesome this game is. Basically, goalies (and I assume other players too) improve their playoff/big game ability as they get more playoff experience.

I started a game with Pittsburgh and wanted to see what happens with big game ability, so I checked MA Fleury's important matches attribute, which started at a 12. The first year, the Pens made the playoffs barely, going out in 5 games in round 1. After that year, his important matches attribute was a 13. Then, year 2, they went all the way and won the Cup. He played pretty terribly throughout the Cup run, but was bailed out by Crosby, Malkin, etc. After that year, his important matches attribute had increased to 17. This is really awesome, because it means that once you have a goalie, you can have that goalie grow into being a huge big game performer.

Yes, this simulates "experience". Young players tend to start quite low on this attribute - ofcourse depending also on the player. As they grow older, and pile up experience, they will be more reliable and consistent, and stop choking in the spotlight.

The game is full of cool, hidden features. The guys at SI are pros in making manager games - years of experience with Championship Manager and Football Manager.

The only problem is AI. No game developer in any type of game so far has been able to create a decent AI. Maybe someday, eh?

I think the AI may not really be the primary problem that makes the game too easy once you have played it awhile. I think a bigger issue may be that once you have played so long, you get an idea of what players to target and avoid so you basically know what to go for, while the AI just runs off scouting reports. It's almost as if they should have set more players to have those random potential ranges so that it trips the human players up by being different each game.

... and to avoid taking advantage of the fact that the AI someties doesn't seem to know who they're signing, almost as if they can't see the attributes, I've decided to play the "Wizard Mode", as introduced to us by our very own B. Stinson.

Really a whole different gaming experience, when you can only rely on your scouts and statistics and have to watch your players as they perform.

jdh79 wrote:I think the AI may not really be the primary problem that makes the game too easy once you have played it awhile. I think a bigger issue may be that once you have played so long, you get an idea of what players to target and avoid so you basically know what to go for, while the AI just runs off scouting reports. It's almost as if they should have set more players to have those random potential ranges so that it trips the human players up by being different each game.

Agree with jdh79 on that. I think it would be fair to let AI's GM to progress naturally as the game goes through. Their pace seems to be much slower than mine. If it coded or something, that can lead us to the Real Competition between few skilled Hockey Wizzards down the road. EHM'09 on the way???

Yep. Also may want to play with the fake names option. I have been thinking about doing that.

Also, wonder if the WIZ mode should be a challenge rule.

But I thought this thread was about "Franchise goalies??" We have a thread for making the game more challenging, so lets keep that info there. I realize this one started from that DiPietro point and has become an AI discussion/rules/WIZ mode....but it is franchise goalies...please move WIZARD etc discussion to the appropriate thread.

I don't honestly think fake names would make the game more challenging. At least not for the first few years until player movement jumbles everything up. If all fake names does is keep the same players, teams and attributes and gives them fake names, it will be pretty obvious who most of the guys are anyway.

Goalies goalies goalies.

(I know I strayed in my post above..sorry) KEEP THINGS ON TOPIC IN HERE PLEASE FOLKS> GOALIES ---FRANCHISE STYLE!!!!!

I'll have to pay attention to the big game factor when the playoffs roll around next.

I missed the playoffs my first year, but have made it the past two and I'm in good shape to make it again this year. First playoff year I got bounced in the first round and Ricky was not particularly strong after an upset win in Game 1. Last year I made it to the second round, losing to a Washington team that caught fire and won the Cup after sneaking into the playoffs on the last day of the season. Ovechkin and Anthony Stewart were just unstoppable, but DiPietro performed well. Not his fault I lost that series.

Back on topic, playing around with various franchises and teams, here is my experience with some of the top goalies:

Lehtonen: He is pretty shaky for the first 1.5-2 years, but around year 3 he really hits his stride and becomes a real dominant force and is great in the playoffs. Nowhere near as injury prone as in real life. You can build around him and Kovalchuk and make Atlanta a dominating dynasty

Fleury: Pretty terrible for the first 2 years, but also seems to always break out around year 3. He becomes a solid, consistent goalie. He isn't spectacular and doesn't tend to win games on his own, but with Crosby and Malkin, you shouldn't need him to.

Ward: Really inconsistent in the regular season. Can be useless for a 20 game stretch then dominant for another 20 games. He is absolutely dominant in the playoffs though from year one on. I think EHM set his attributes to work like this, given that he broke out during the 2006 playoff run.

Nabokov: Absolutely the biggest jerk in the game. He always has an awesome year 1 with the Sharks (near Vezina calibre), then always becomes unhappy and demands a trade to have a new challenge. This happens is literally every game after year one, it's not just a fluke event. Whatever you do, don't be the poor team that trades for him no matter how desperate you are for goaltending! Every time, whether on one of my teams with an awesome defense, or on an AI team, he proceeds to be complete garbage and stink it up to the tune of around a 7.5 average rating and .880 or so save percentage. He continues to tank it until he hits his contract year, at which point he magically puts in a career type year, then demands a huge raise, refuses to resign with the team that put up with his rubbish for the last 3 years, then signs elsewhere. Avoid the guy at all costs!

Kolzig: He stays rock solid even up to age 39 or so and is a near-Vezina calibre guy with the proper defensive support. If taking over a team that needs goaltending after year 1 (Florida, Phoenix, LA, Toronto probably, etc), I would make him my top target and ride him until he calls it quits

Biron: He would be my 2nd target if you need to sign a goalie for year 2 and can't get Kolzig. If you have him on a proper practice schedule (if he is AI controlled, he won't be), like intensive goaltending, offense and defense, he will have excellent attributes within a year. He always has an average rating well over 8, and won't win games, but tends to be relatively consistent, rarely gives up more than 3-4 goals, and will sign for like 2.2 million for 3 years.

Khabibulin: I would avoid at all costs and get rid of his stupid salary if you take the Blackhawks. Maddeningly inconsistent, never seems to have a GAA under 3 or SV% over .900 whether you control him or the AI does. Unacceptable for 6.25 million

Legace: I have never been able to get him to be anything better than a major liability. AI teams seem to sometimes get great stats out of him though

Budaj: Within a year, his attributes make him look like a starter, but I have found the guy way too inconsistent to rely on. He will go through 20 game stretches where he is getting pulled 50% of the time and just useless, but will also dominate for stretches too. A great backup, or platoon type goalie and he will stay signed cheap (less than 700,000 for the first 5 years)

Hasek regen: All really depends on how his randomly generated positioning, anticipation, etc attributes turn out. Keep in mind that in the best case scenario it will take him until he is 21 (3 years after being drafted) before he is NHL ready, and it will be about year 3 of starting before I find he breaks out into being a reliable top notch goalie. At that point, you are like 9 seasons into the game, and he will start wanting 4 million/year by then too. Plus, the Hasek regen carries over Hasek's sky high injury prone rating too, so he is risky. It all amounts to it maybe not being worth the hassle.

For that matter, I don't know that developing goaltending in general is worth the hassle, because they typically are well out of their entry level contracts before you start getting real production out of them, at which point you probably have to pay big. It may be better to just save the headache and pay top dollar for free agent goaltending. After year 4, Luongo, Kiprusoff, Huet, Turco, Fernandez all seem to become free agents at once and change teams, and in the next 1-2 years after that, you usually see a lot of the younger franchise guys (Ward, Lehtonen, Lundqvist, Miller Niittymaki, etc) be allowed to hit UFA and change teams too. Maybe it's just easier to pay the big bucks for one of them and keep on winning.

One thing I do find it very hard to do is make a long playoff run without a franchise type goalie. You can run a goalie platoon or make do with mediocre goaltending in the regular season usually if you have decent offense, defense and tactics, but come playoff time, I always tend to exit early if I don't have a top goalie. The AI teams that make the conference finals invariably tend to be the teams with the top goalies too, so I think it's a huge factor.

Tis alot of research there. WOW!

Now it is not that hard to win without a top rated goalie. I have won cups with

1. Lalime
2. Budaj
3. Leclaire
4. Emery

In fact Emery won every goalie award possible in his 2 or 3 years with the Hawks. Budaj/Price combo (Budaj playing more games) was amazing. Leclaire won a cup for me in Columbus and was awesome. In fact, I did not win cups with star goalies: Kiprusoff, Hasek regen (age 25-29), Luongo....so I dunno.

To me, the goalie is almost an afterthought. Yes I have had Niittymaki (spelling Tasku?) but my teams and tactics are much more important in developing a dynasty. Goalies I usually go cheap and young on.

I had Emery and dumped him when he wanted $3mill, went to Budaj. I had Leclaire and dumped him when he wanted 2.5. I had Nitty and dumped him when he wanted $4. I had Kipper and dumped him. The one constant: my teams seem to win the Cup. Alot. Regardless of goaltending.

I think the reason it's different for me is probably the tactics that I prefer to run. I prefer to run generally heavily offensive tactics that probably put a lot of pressure on the goalie. I am always scoring 300+ goals a year. However, what I find with using a good offensive tactics system is you actually do not have to spend that much money on offensive players. You just want one superstar, and several cheap 2nd liner types (guys like York, Hunter, Clark, Knuble, Blake, etc, etc work great) and then fill the bottom 2 lines with cheap guys with great defensive attributes. I then dump the majority of the money into having 3-4 legitimate #1-2 type d-men and a great goalie.

The system always works great during the regular season. It just runs into problems in the playoffs if I don't have a shut down goalie, especially if I face a team with a Brodeur, Kiprusoff, etc.

Over 300 goals? check
Offensive tactic user? check
Superstar goalie? no
Cheap second liners--yes and no
Checking unit? Not often--prefer youngsters on 3 and 4 for the most part
Goon Check(always always always have designated 4th line jerk)
System working in the playoffs? Check for me. works
Play all 4 lines regularly..check
change tactics between 2nd and 3rd...check
lose in playoffs--rarely if ever.

It is tactics, not the goalie issue. You do need to vary your tactics. If you run with the same 1 (or even 2) the opposition (in particular in the playoffs) will learn em, and stuff you. If you vary them enough (I have 3 sets, and change between games and often after the 2nd period==all offensive tactics mind you..no trap or defense lockdown) and do not vary them too much from each other (just breakout and neutral zone changes) you will end up succeeding.

I know some play 3 lines, but I play all 4, and tend to not make too many roster changes even in the off season. 1 or 2 at the most.

Of course though, my power play has always sucked, so what the hell do I know?

Really, if you have the right tactics with the right players and a subtle variation in them...you will not have issues regardless of your goalie. Honestly I believe I could win a cup or 2 with Cloutier in net. I hate him though, so I never get him.