1974/75: Nino's Rosters - Mario Lemieux as an 8 year old

[archibalduk]

Crikey! I'm so sorry to hear that. It must be extremely frustrating.

Could it be that one of the WHL teams has to be present in the database in order for the game to run? I know there's a few NHL teams that have to exist in the database in order for the game to function.

[nino33]

Has anyone ever edited teams in the WHL on such a large scale (15 of 21 teams changed)? Because all I get is CRASH CRASH CRASH. Incredibly frustrating...sometimes only 3-4 teams and then a crash, sometimes 8-10...one time all but two done....seems to be more than one factor too (I don't think I can edit the Vancouver Giants out of the WHL but it also seems to be more than that).

At this point the idea of editing the teams in all of Major Junior and Minor Pro seems like torture......has anyone ever edited teams in mass?
I've heard about other databases but the only database I've ever actually seen besides Lidas/Manimal and the Unfaking is the 1979-80 database.....all but the
1979-80 db are largely the same as the original (no League has 80-90% "new" teams), so only the 1979-80 db made radical changes (in the NHL) and it was a
nightmare - maybe it's not just the TM logos that caused isues?

Has anyone actually seen EHM07 with an actual North American League (Major Junior or Pro) that has actually had 80-90% of the teams edited? Is this even possible?
If such a db does exist can I get a copy? Maybe I then I can try to figure out why it's not working for me...

Regards

FYI I'm keeping all of the teams in the db....tried deleting/overwriting, tried setting to "Invalid", tried leaving as "Amateur".....I think I've tried every way there is

[Primis]

Maybe I'm missing what you're saying here but... it sounds like you're trying to edit OVER the teams in the editor.

I've heavily (very heavily in some of them) made over all of the NHL, AHL, ECHL, CHL, and UHL at various points and never, ever run into a problem so long as you move the original team to "A Minor League" and change their budgets and reps down to make them unimportant in the game. The ECHL and UHL in particular I've completely made over this way with no problems.

Trying to Edit over the actual teams themselves is just inviting frustration though, from my experience before I began just moving and shifting them around. It's very hit-and-miss otherwise. Don't edit over the teams already there. Create the teams you want, move the existing teams so that they remain in the DB (active) but are inconsequential in league, level and rep to the game, and then move your newly-created team in. The game only cares that the original teams exist active somewhere, anywhere in the DB, it doesn't really matter where.

You could even create random background leagues called "NHL Moved", "WHL Moved", etc... to make homes for the modern teams you're moving out, just to keep things tidy and be able to easily find them later I guess. Remember, there's technically no limit to the background leagues and teams you can add in to the DB. Just be sure to bump their reps and such way down to make them unimportant.

[nino33]

I tried multiple ways (including overwriting after 20+ hours of failure but that didn't work either).
I've spent a couple days straight on it and I can't explain it.....it's surreal.

And in the process it looks like my most recent save is a week old.....so I'm crushed.
Short version of a very long story is I likely mislabelled an older save and then amidst dozens of saves (testing) and massive stress (crashing)I deleted the wrong files.
I've gone through most of the 36 databases currently in my Recycle and no luck...and an hour ago I "moved on"

I had put the db aside back in June...and honestly I am once again "done' - BUT I want to release what I believe is a very playable version first.
So I'll spend the next week redoing what I'd already done this past week, and then maybe another week tops and then a release.
There will not be any team editiing of Major Junior/Minor Pro teams, of this I am 100% sure.
Maybe someone else will be able to edit the team names...

Regards

P.S. I never messed with budgets/reps, so maybe that's part of it....but honestly, for me at this point I don't care anymore. The ony reason i haven't "put it back on the shelf" is because I've already put so much tiime into it (seems like a waste of July if I don't get a finished version)...

ALSO...when you say you edited CHL do you mean WHL/OHL/QMJHL? Or Central Hockey League? Because my problem is with the Western Hockey League

[Primis]

ALSO...when you say you edited CHL do you mean WHL/OHL/QMJHL? Or Central Hockey League? Because my problem is with the Western Hockey League

Central league. Sorry.

I did mess around once with an OHL game I had going, and I found moving the current OHL teams out to "A Minor League"(I only did a handful) and then moving the new ones in worked just fine. Had no problems with it since the teams still existed in the DB (albeit in an unimportant league). However,I rarely play in Major Juniors. My interest is always more in minor pro, so I've spent way, way more time there (especially in AHL and ECHL). I've maybe played a grand total of twice in Major Juniors in 07.

I have never, EVER run into a problem moving teams in and out 1-for-1 (unless I screw up the alignment or something moronic that's my own fault). So long as you're paying VERY close attention to divisional, conference, and league structures so you don't get an extra team here or one missing there, your modifying possibilities are about limitless. Easiest way to do it if you're doing it on a large scale is to break it down into small chunks. Edit it, save, test it to make sure it isn't broken, then move on to the next chunk. I usually map it out in a notebook first, just so I don't lose track.

Am I the only one that mods on my own this much? I never ever intend on releasing anything it's just for me, but I haven't thought twice about spending 8 hours modifying a DB to my liking before playing a game... I assumed others regularly move teams around just because they can. Maybe not?... 1-for-1 has never, ever failed me.

[nino33]

Thank you very much for the feedback. I think that's why I kept trying, because I "know" it should have worked..but I couldn't get it...

Since I've talked publicly about it and I've spent so much time on it already and because I really want a version 1.0 "done" myself I'm carrying on...but my focus now is on "getting it out".....I'm REALLY looking forward to playing EHM for a while (I need a break from editing)

[nino33]

Me again...just want to say the failure of the "team issue" is almost certainly mine (or the game hates me!).
I too want the teams edited (and who knows, maybe I'll try again before release).
Alas I did lose a lot of work (must have deleted the wrong file), and I'll be lucky to be '"back where I was" before the next weekend...oh well, I've come this far

[Manimal]

Nino, Nino, Nino...

A little patience? NONE of my releases has come out when I first wanted them to.
I just donloaded the 79-80 db and moved around the WHL teams adding Winnipeg, Flin Flon, Billings, Great Falls, Nanaimo, Edmonton, New Westminster and Victoria. I moved some teams to the A Minor League(A good place to hide away teams) and I could start up a game after those changes. I have not tried to change any nicknames yet, but I would suggest not to edit any of the existing WHL teams. Just move them away and create new teams(if the ones you want to add doesn't exist in the editor).

Now I'm gonna have a look at your other questions. I'll answer soon(dinner is on the way)

[Manimal]

…what will happen to those modern staff I can’t seem to edit/overwrite? Will modern staff “hidden” in far off low leagues find their way back into the news? Will the game create additional staff? What is the optimum number of coaches/scouts when the game “runs itself”?
If I ensure the NHL jobs are filled at game start-up and all contracts are more than a year, will any modern staff “hanging around” disappear with no opportunity to be hired?

The game will not add new staff to a NHL-team, if it doesnt have them. I have seen FA-staff listed with junior teams that they shouldnt be when starting the game, but I can't remember if the leagues were enhanced or standard or even non-added at the time. Modern staff hidden in lower leagues will be signed by better teams/leagues if they are good enough or still have high reputation. The game will create new-gen staff as FAs. If no NHL-jobs are available, then the modern staff will sign in lesser leagues to a certan extent. Some might just hang around as FAs until jobs open up(and they eventually will)

I had been working on a 1976 db initially , and so while dealing witth the above issues I was slowly moving all of the 1975/1976 players back into Major Junior (removing any NHL draft/rights data).....and now I'll be putting it back!
In testing I've now noticed a flood of offers NHL teams are making to 18-19-20 year old players in Major Junior and college! And players are signing!

Are those players un-drafted? Then they shouldn't be able to be signed until they are 20. We have had that problem with NHL-teams signing too young guys before. I believe if you add their Birth year(below Date of Birth) then you get away from it.
If players are listed as drafted but not with rights then they are available to be signed younger than 20, I think.

Can anyone tell me the EXACT youngest DOB at start-up a player can have and still be in Major Junior? Can it be 15 in some circumstances?

When starting in 2006, players must be born in 1990, the latest to be with a QMJHL or OHL team. WHL teams have limits on the number of 1990s dressed.

And under what circumstances can a 18-19 year old play in minor pro (AHL/ECHL)?

If they are drafted from Europe then they can play minor pro. Also, if they are drafted but their Major JUnior team has dropped their rights. However, with edited databases it is a common bug that lets players play minor pro when they shouldnt be allowed.

In both cases all I did was click "approach to sign" and offer a contract.....in one case it is called a "transfer" and in another a "contract offer"???

Just different words to make the game less monotone

I couldn't sign players age 13-16. I was told by the game I couldn't sign some 17 year olds, others I was able to sign...and 18-19-20 year olds I seemed to have no probem signing!

Thoughts?

Try adding the Birth Year

I've heavily (very heavily in some of them) made over all of the NHL, AHL, ECHL, CHL, and UHL at various points and never, ever run into a problem so long as you move the original team to "A Minor League" and change their budgets and reps down to make them unimportant in the game. The ECHL and UHL in particular I've completely made over this way with no problems.

Trying to Edit over the actual teams themselves is just inviting frustration though, from my experience before I began just moving and shifting them around. It's very hit-and-miss otherwise. Don't edit over the teams already there. Create the teams you want, move the existing teams so that they remain in the DB (active) but are inconsequential in league, level and rep to the game, and then move your newly-created team in. The game only cares that the original teams exist active somewhere, anywhere in the DB, it doesn't really matter where.

You could even create random background leagues called "NHL Moved", "WHL Moved", etc... to make homes for the modern teams you're moving out, just to keep things tidy and be able to easily find them later I guess. Remember, there's technically no limit to the background leagues and teams you can add in to the DB. Just be sure to bump their reps and such way down to make them unimportant.

Very good points!
I usually just clear Nation, Division and other Division and it's always worked for me

[nino33]

There will not be any team editiing of Major Junior/Minor Pro teams, of this I am 100% sure.

Turns out I was 100% wrong! I found Primis' conviction reassuring and tried again...and working very slowly and carefully, and using a created "WHL Moved" League (and creating a new team for every team I added regardless if the team was "available' already in the db), I've managed to edit the WHL teams! Woo Hoo!

The 1974 db WHL...

EAST DIVISION
Brandon Wheat Kings
Regina Pats
Moose Jaw Warriors
Flin Flon Bombers
Winnipeg Clubs
Saskatoon Blades

CENTRAL DIVISION
Medicine Hat Tigers
Edmonton Oil Kings
Calgary Wranglers
Red Deer Rustlers
Lethbridge Broncos

BC DIVISION
Kamloops Chiefs
Victoria Cougars
New Westminster Bruins
Nanamio Islanders
Kelowna Wings

US DIVISION
Billings Bighorns
Great Falls Americans
Seattle Breakers
Spokane Flyers
Portland Winter Hawks

[nino33]

Thanks for all the feedback Manimal! I appreciate it

nino33 wrote:
And under what circumstances can a 18-19 year old play in minor pro (AHL/ECHL)?

If they are drafted from Europe then they can play minor pro. Also, if they are drafted but their Major JUnior team has dropped their rights. However, with edited databases it is a common bug that lets players play minor pro when they shouldnt be allowed.

I seem to recall reading something before about "Rights" and using the 1.6 Editor instead of the 1.7 Editor? Something about the 1.7 Editor didn't work for Rights...have you heard of this? Anything I should worry about? or was this fixed long ago? I use the 1.7 Editor (and I've not dealt much wiith "Rights" up until now)...

Thanks

[Tyees]

In response to keeping Euros in Europe, I think if they have low adaptability they are less likely to come over due to language stuff.I haven't really played around with it to much but I've noticed if I up that I can get staff to sign with me

I to have edited the entire CHL (Canadian hockey league) and when I got a crash it was all because I had the wrong number of teams per division.

[Primis]

Good to hear, nino33. If it's any consolation, I banged my head against the wall for a month or so before someone else suggested the 1-for-1 thing to me originally. It's something you normally do in another game's editor (just change the team name) and don't think twice about it, with no problem. But the hardcoded, licensing issues within the .EXE making doing it 1-for-1 the only truly safe way. Unfortunately it's just also a PITA to keep track of as you're doing it on any large scale.

I think 2007 has maybe a lot more customization "options" still than we even realize, honestly. The updates and handful of DB projects out there (and they're great don't get me wrong, I'm just always dumbfounded that there aren't more out there) haven't really pushed hard into what else could be done especially as processing power continue to grow and larger DB's are more-feasible than previously. I know a lot is still hidden in the .EXE but...

Keep up the good work nino. As this comes along I'm more and more interested in this. I may be mistaken, but I think we have yet to see a retro DB that goes as deep as this might.

[nino33]

I think if they have low adaptability they are less likely to come over due to language stuff.

Thanks for the feedback Tyees. I've planned on adjusting Adaptability for some Europeans/Russians (many are already very low)...I don't have very definitive results, but it did seem to be a liitle less effective when the European/Russian had a very high CA - in the 1974 db there are a number of "Ovechkin/Crosby" types in Russia that I want to keep there (like Kharlamov), and in my initial testing high CA/PA often trumped low adaptability


Thanks for the good thoughts Primis

I may be mistaken, but I think we have yet to see a retro DB that goes as deep as this might

From what I''ve seen you're right, because all I've ever seen is the 1979-80 db, and the 1974 db added to the 1979-80 db
Pens66 did a great job, especcially wiith having historical Major Junior players!

Like the 1979-80 db the 1974 db has great historical NHL rosters (a full 30 teams worth with the combined NHL/WHA of the day).
And like the 1979-80 db there are historical Major Junior players (now even more historical Juniors!).
PLUS I've added "Minor Hockey" Leagues and historical players to feed the drafts of later years
PLUS historical AHL players (currently about 150-200)
PLUS historical NHL staff and historical Referees
PLUS historical Major Junior/Minor Pro teams
PLUS added "functionality" (reducing/eliminating "waiver issues" and reducining/eliminating the Russian/European invasion that occured to soon)

I think the above brief description accurately describes what's coming in version 1.0.

Back to the editing!

[Manimal]

I seem to recall reading something before about "Rights" and using the 1.6 Editor instead of the 1.7 Editor? Something about the 1.7 Editor didn't work for Rights...have you heard of this? Anything I should worry about? or was this fixed long ago? I use the 1.7 Editor (and I've not dealt much wiith "Rights" up until now)...

Yeah, in one of the versions (can't remember which one) you cannot add player rights. Rights are very important to have, especially if you want to have the 75 and 76 draft already drafted. Those players should also have their rights with their NHL-teams and still be in junior or college or wherever they were drafted from. Then you'll only have the 18 year-olds to be drafted in 2007(in-game)

[nino33]

especially if you want to have the 75 and 76 draft already drafted. Those players should also have their rights with their NHL-teams and still be in junior or college or wherever they were drafted from. Then you'll only have the 18 year-olds to be drafted in 2007(in-game)

That's exactly what my plan is.....75/76 drafted, with Rights assigned and in Junior/College/Overseas, and 18 year olds in 2007 in-game being available for the first draft.
It seems that the Editor is assigning Rights just fine (they show up in-game as entered in the Editor)


UPDATE
I've completed the mass moving of players from the newly "defunct" WHL teams to the newly "created" WHL teams. Since everything was going so well I moved on to the OHL and did the team moving there to (now I need to move the players)...the only "historical" team I didn't use is the Guelph Platers (kept the Erie Otters instead)

The OHL for the 1974 db...

EAST
Belleville Bulls
Cornwall Royals
Kingston Canadians
Oshawa Generals
Peterborough Petes

CENTRAL
Barrie Colts
Brantford Alexanders
Niagra Falls Flyers
Ottawa 67s
Toronto Marlboros

MIDWEST
London Knights
Detroit Compuware
Hamilton Fincups
St. Catharines Black Hawks
Kitchener Rangers

WEST
North Bay Centennials
Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds
Sudbury Wolves
Windsor Spitfires
Erie Otters

[Primis]

IIRC there was also a 1990-91 DB kicking around that I found somewhere and played for a bit. But aside from those two, those are the only conversion I know of (and both happen to be retro). I have yet to see a fantasy/future/alternate mod conversion (which would be fun also quite frankly).

The only other retro mod was Chip's excellent 1980 mod for the original EHM freeware.

Anyhow, back on track, enough rambling from me.

[Manimal]

I see you're going by my lists. Cool!

...and working very slowly and carefully, and using a created "WHL Moved" League (and creating a new team for every team I added regardless if the team was "available' already in the db)

There is no need to create a new team if the old one is in the db outside of the leagues such as Great Falls or New Westminster

[nino33]

Ya that's what I thought and still think too.....but after a nightmare two days "it's working now" so I'm not messing with it!
I figure the worst I'll have is a few extra teams wiith the same name in the db (I am checking to make sure I get the players on the right team).

[pens66]

Nino, you're crazy
Great to seet that you put so much work into this. I'm really looking forward to the mod.
I hope you do some regular testing to see if all the stuff still works a couple of years into gametime! It would be a shame...

[nino33]

I hope you do some regular testing to see if all the stuff still works a couple of years into gametime! It would be a shame...

So far I've Quick Sim tested 10-14 years forward many times and no issues! I've also done a couple 3-4 year tests with everything maximized (takes so long is the only "issue"). I've also done some slow/careful day-to-day testing at key points in the season (first few days, October 1st when rankings come out, the Draft in June and Free Agency in July) and in so doing noted issues and determined solutions......the PITA part sometimes is keeping up the effort/energy when you can so clearly see the days/weeks of known editing tasks ahead...

Nino, you're crazy

That's why I didn't say anything publicly for so long! LOL.....I started in July 2010 and have been working on it since, and I didn't get to start testing until January of this year! And it wasn't until around February/March of this year that I even admitted to myself that it might actually come to something.....most of the the prep work on this has been started/done for many months (I appreciated the effort/enthusiasm Manimal but I had all the Major Junior/Minor Pro options last year) - I've got enough Minor Pro rosters to completely fill the AHL and the ECHL, but it takes weeks/months to enter them...I've got European/Russian rosters (recently recieved a Yearbook with rosters of the era for Finland!) - I've done significant testing and want to adust certain Characteristics/Attributes "worldwide" but that too takes a lot of time...

I'm glad you're looking forward to it...so am I! That's why I'm focusing on a verion 1.0....and then full Major Junior/Minor Pro and full European/Russian rosters and more historical Staff and more Attribute/Characteristic adjusting in the future (I love that 1974 is NOT a moving/chamging target like the modern rosters are)

Regards

P.S. I am still looking for rosters from the era for Sweden/Russia...

[Aahlstroem]

http://www.frolundaindians.com/sv/frolu ... qsKullID=1
It's in Swedish and you'll have to change the season yourself but here you can find Frölundas roster.

[nino33]

Thanks, but alas I need it in English (I guess I should have been more specific)

[Manimal]

The problem with Sweden is that the Elite League was founded in 1975. Rosters from 75-76 can be found, but it's a lot harder to find them from 74-75. Stats from that season can be found on hockeydb.com, but you'd need DOB, size and positions, don't you?

[nino33]

The problem with Sweden is that the Elite League was founded in 1975. Rosters from 75-76 can be found, but it's a lot harder to find them from 74-75

I think anything close....like 1972 through until 1976...anywhere in there or close would be good

Stats from that season can be found on hockeydb.com, but you'd need DOB, size and positions, don't you?

Ideally Stats, DOB, Size, Shoots Right/Left, and Position along with Name and Number.....but really even just historcal names to use to overwrite modern names I think would be better....the "hockey db" site is definetly part of the data gathering process, and can/will be used (seems to have more for Sweden than Russia if I recall)...I just thought I'd reach out for any information that might be out there (I love multiple sources)

Ultimaely the European/Russian leagues could be "fully made over" but honestly at this point I'm just looking to assist in creating an immersive, historical mod for "NHL Play" and the name changes in Europe/Russia might help "fool the eye/mind" by further avoiding the possibility of modern names (and they will likely not be part of 1.0, but rather a future addition/upgrade).....

Regards