getting guaranteed stars with random attributes

[Animal31]

So Ive been searching around a ton, and ive come across lots of bits and pieces of my problem, including running tests on my own database

poor writing structure aside, my main goal is to create a database with with kids from places, with pictures of players I made in nhl 13, such as hungary and greece that turn into superstars and make for a more fantasy driven game experience
My main problem is this; even though they have 200 pa [-10 not to get into semantics] and they "good" they either suck outright, with poor CA at every stage of their career, or their attributes are too low for their CA, or even they have good all of the above but just dont develop

For example, in my non-fantasy database, I have adam larsson and Cam fowler, both have had experience in junior and the AHL and are 23, but arnt getting much better, and arnt as good as the scouts or their CA say


ive run some tests with all random attributes, and random CAs with all -10 PA, all players are generally not very good; low attributes for their CA, or they just dont get that much better

Im trying to make stars, that will own the league, but not be "unreal" and "mary sue" while still winning awards, obviously with a chance of sucktatude, and maybe even being better/worse among play throughs, without hard coding their attributes to make them good enough to play well and develop properly

[I even have jack campbell, with 197 PA, and 135 CA at 23 but barley being better than a prospect I picked up, so maybe its my game, idk, i do know ive never properly developed a goalie so theres that, but i dont know]

my main goal would be to create a doubled database, with 50% real players, 50% my players, or even just 100% my players with my favourite players like Baertschi and Kovy in it for realism. But I still dont know how to make players that well, so any help would be appreciated. the database with larsson campbell and fowler is the last updated un faking database

[nino33]

Greetings!

I received your PM today asking about "new player creation/development" - I figured I'd answer here/publicly as you asked here/publicly first...

I was wondering if you could give me a short tutorial on creating players and having them develop to the players you want them to be, like you did in your 1975 database.....im having difficulty getting their attributes as a 15/14 year old to be reletive to 15/14 year olds then having them develop properly as 20 somethings without being mary sues, but still being players every team wants, if that makes sense

If you were to use the EHM Updater (function #5) you can quickly/easily export all the players data and take a look for yourself…mostly CA is the key, but I also did some things differently – certain Attributes were not left to “0” (i.e. not variable) that are typically left to “0” in other databases.

I just used the Updater to take a quick look at the 1974 database myself…players age 14 in the 1974 db at start-up CA of around 50-55…the Attributes Consistency, Importance, Work Rate, Determination and Professionalism all range between 10-20 (no one has a rating below 10)

I did some testing back in 2011 looking at CA development (and Height/Weight development) that you might want to look at http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... rs+of+data+



Do you know that some attributes change/develop over time, and some are essentially permanent/unchanging?

Attributes that develop/change over time – Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Speed, Stamina, Strength, Checking, Hitting, Pokecheck, Positioning, Deflections, Deking, Off the Puck, Passing, Stickhandling, Slapshot, Wristshot, Faceoffs
Attributes that seem to never change/develop – Aggression, Anticipation, Bravery, Creativity, Flair, Injury Proneness, Natural Fitness, Consistency, Decisions, Important Matches, Pass Tendency, Agitation, Versatility
Attributes that seem to rarely if ever change/develop (and if they do change it’s a small amount) – Determination, Influence, Team Work, Work Rate

The red font indicates those Attributes that IMO should be focused on to create quality (young) players.



TBL has a lot of useful information on Attributes, including
http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/wiki/inde ... s:_Players
http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... =13&t=4920

A couple other threads that might be of interest
Which attributes affect development? http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... =17&t=9653
Player attribute progression...http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... evelopment



Hope I helped!

P.S. I have no idea what you mean by a "mary sue" player

[Animal31]

mary sue is a term in writing used to refer to a character that is generally "the best" or "perfect" or a character introduced in a fan fiction that is better than every other character in every way, so a player who is better at 15 then another is at 23, and has no weaknesses in his game, and is perfect and thus makes for bad writing, and unrealistic gameplay if he wasnt just randomly created and happended to get lucky, if that makes sense

I was refering to how I know how to add a really good player, but not add a player as a 15 year old and have him develop into someone who plays a few years in the AHL, then becomes a star, at least not realisticly. I know about the attributes, and CA, and PA, and ive run my own tests involving actual attribute my main trouble is putting it to paper, and actually having the player be good and realistic [at least in terms of gameplay] at the same time.

My problem isnt in the theory, but the practicality


to fully spell it out; I made players in NHL 13 and tried to add them to EHM as 92 borns, then have them end up as they are in nhl 13 with a reasonable margin for error

For example

Paul Aquino, italian born defensman, heavy hitter, good puck movment, joins a junior team at 17, gets drafted in the 2nd round, then sets shot blocking records in abbotsford for a couple years before becoming a 1st liner in calgary

Maybe, could you give me an example of a 13/14/15 year old you added to the 1975 database that would be like what im trying to do? I think that would be most helpful right now
: Like your thought process, and scouting, and editing, and whatever you did to get the player just how you wanted?

[nino33]

For example
Paul Aquino, italian born defensman, heavy hitter, good puck movment, joins a junior team at 17, gets drafted in the 2nd round, then sets shot blocking records in abbotsford for a couple years before becoming a 1st liner in calgary

Hmmmm…if what you’re trying to do is to create a player that “develops late”
#1 I never tried to do such a thing myself
#2 I don’t think EHM really allows for “late bloomers”

Maybe, could you give me an example of a 13/14/15 year old you added to the 1975 database that would be like what im trying to do? I think that would be most helpful right now: Like your thought process, and scouting, and editing, and whatever you did to get the player just how you wanted?

IMO the modern databases are full of overrated players (far to many above average players). I did delete well over 10,000 players (so there’s no modern player left that has or will develop a CA over 100), and the thousands of historical players I created have lower CAs on average + my Role Ratings are significantly different, with defensemen typically receiving an offensive rating of 5-8 and defensive ratings around 15, and forwards rarely receiving a defensive rating below 10 and offensive ratings are lower on average too + I typically used the average Attribute as a max and not the max listed in the “Estimated attribute values by CA” chart. I did some data comparisons in October that show some of these differences http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 21#p148521

Perhaps these things help increase the number of players that require minor pro development…but I never purposely tried to create 13-14-15 year olds that would require a few minor pro years before reaching the NHL.

[Animal31]

Just showing you my database players, Poppele is 49 CA, 195 PA at the start of my test run, drafted in the 2nd round, and bounced around the AHL
heres him at game start with 49CA, which was random; 0 and -10, all attributes 0


and heres him at 73


and here at 134


but even at 134, which is said to be #6 d-man[which he is], he still sucks in the AHL, being traded eventually for a 4th rounder getting a 6 average rating in the AHL, and everywhere, and because of his CA, he got called up, and still sucked, as seen here



So im really confused

Another player, with lower CA, but higher attributes of 43 and 173, starting with 0 and -10


and at 95


and again at 164



he happens to be the first line centre, even though the 2nd line centre has higher attributes than him, and more points, but a lower average rating


utlimatly I would think both players would be about the same in terms of ability, with varga being to forward as popperle is to d-man, at least in my nhl 13 builds, both with the same overall rating.

both happen to be 20 20 in terms of role, so I know thats not a factor, the only thing would be size and determination. But that doesnt explain starting attributes and CA. Which just raises the question of : What are good starting attributes for 14 year olds that dont make them 'broken' or 'too pants'?

I realise this is how it should be in the real world, but Im trying to make my own world here, and i would like to influence the best of my ability, but I also figure im over my head right now

[nino33]

Hmmm….maybe the 20/20 Roles is spreading the Attribute growth to thin? Also, both players moved into Major Junior out of extremely low reputation Leagues…maybe this plays a part too?

IMO it only takes a few Attribute weaknesses to really negatively affect a player’s development.

Both players have some pretty glaring weaknesses…Popperle’s Agility, Acceleration, Bravery, Determination and Work Rate are all pretty low; Varga’s got no skating Speed at all, so producing an AvR of 7.21 over 425 NHL games played by age 23 seems pretty good to me!

CA, which was random; 0 and -10, all attributes 0

i would like to influence the best of my ability

IMO leaving things like CA and all Attributes to "0" (random) likely won't produce a high percentage of the quality of players you're looking for...


In the 1974 database 14 year old Ray Bourque starts with a 65 CA and about half the 50 Attributes are NOT "0" - some examples: Anticipation is 19, Consistency is 19, Decisions are 16, Important Matches is 18, Vision is 16, Work Rate is 17, Natural Fitness is 19, Stamina is 19, Ambition is 19, Determination is 16, Pressure is 17

In the 1974 database 14 year old Michel Goulet starts with a 55 CA and again about half the 50 Attributes are NOT "0" - some examples: Anticipation is 17, Consistency is 14, Decisions are 14, Important Matches is 16, Work Rate is 12, Acceleration/Agility/Balance/Pace are all 9, Natural Fitness is 10, Stamina is 12, Passing/Slapshot/Stickhandling/Wristshot are all 6, Ambition is 11, Determination is 13, Pressure is 11

I'm not saying these are the right/correct/perfect Attribute settings; the point is that I did not allow the computer to determine everything (by having most/all Attributes set to "0")...in particular I tried to influence the unchanging/permanent Attributes of young top level players and also I tried to start young top level players with at least the average in many of the Attributes that change/develop

FYI - I use the 1-20 scale and not the 1-100



Regards

[Animal31]

In your tests, would you say that bourque was just right? not 'too good' or 'too bad' at any level? [granted, bad for Bourque would be like 1000 points in jr, but I digress] or at least in a "hot spot" of margin for error?

Like would he even be the same style as player as he should?

i have popperle and varga in nhl 13 as an offensive defensman, and a two-way forward respectively, is all that just accomplished with roles? Im not sure i have them as 20/20 anymore, as i was just testing growth back then

[nino33]

In your tests, would you say that bourque was just right? not 'too good' or 'too bad' at any level? [granted, bad for Bourque would be like 1000 points in jr, but I digress] or at least in a "hot spot" of margin for error?

Not really sure…overall things seemed to work; the 1974 database is a work-in-progress and I haven’t really looked at individual players in such detail - there’s actually a "1974db Testing Results/Feedback" thread, and Bourque’s name is mentioned a bit (you can use Search when you're in the thread, and search just the thread for Bourque) http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... =13&t=9147
AND...the issue of Attributes (and Bourque!) actually came up right before the release of version 1.0 back in September http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... &start=550

Like would he even be the same style as player as he should?... as an offensive defensman, and a two-way forward respectively, is all that just accomplished with roles?

Not just roles, but roles play a significant part…
The individual Attributes can play a big part too (especially the permanent/unchanging Attributes).
And a few high/above average “age appropriate" technical Attributes can help too.

[Animal31]

I think the whole topic comes back around when I ask "Whats age appropriate for a future star player" without going into unrealistic ranges?

[nino33]

Currently in the 1974 database, average starting CAs by age (there's 50-200 "future NHLers" in each age group, some future stars/superstars and some not)

Age 17 - 68.2
Age 16 - 63.7
Age 14 - 48.5
Age 13 - 45.3
Age 12 - 25
Age 11 - 25.5
Age 10 - 33.7
Age 9 - 26.4
Age 8 - 21.8
Age 7 - 19.0
Age 6 - 18.8
Age 5 - 10.0
Age 4 - 10.0
Age 3 - 5.0

[Animal31]

what about the actual attributes?

[nino33]

From the Attribute Guide thread (link above)

Estimated attribute values by CA


CA AVR MIN MAX
10 4,5 1,0 10,5
20 5,0 1,0 11,0
30 5,5 1,0 11,5
40 6,0 1,0 12,0
50 6,5 1,0 12,5
60 6,0 1,0 13,0
70 7,5 1,5 13,5
80 8,0 2,0 14,0
90 8,5 2,5 14,5
100 9,0 3,0 15,0
110 9,5 3,5 15,5
120 10,0 4,0 16,0
130 10,5 4,5 16,5
140 11,0 5,0 17,0
150 11,5 5,5 17,5
160 12,0 6,0 18,0
170 12,5 6,5 18,5
180 13,0 7,0 19,0
190 13,5 7,5 19,5
200 14,0 8,0 20,0


This does not mean that MAX value is the hard cap value. Same with the MIN value. This is just a guideline. In some cases you will encounter a talented low-mid level CA skater, aggressive enforcer, or a really strong, but otherwise poor or average player. Non-technical and mental attributes may vary a lot, depending on the individual, whereas technical attributes tend to correlate with the guidelines.

I added the blue font...IMO it's best to stay near average (and don't forget this only applies to those Attributes that change/develop over time)

[Animal31]

And have tests shown that those with "average" stats stay average to their CA, or is that just for start up? For example, will a CA of 10, and average attributes of 4/5, and 20 in whatever affects development become all 14 at 200?

[archibalduk]

Nino can probably tell you more than I can as he has explored this in quite some depth. However, it is worth noting that there are two categories of attributes in EHM: Technical and Non-Technical.

Non-technical attributes are not affected by the player's CA. Any player can have any rating from 1-20 for a non-technical attribute regardless of what their CA is. So these are attributes such as the mental attributes and physical ones - such as work rate, speed and consistency.

The CA affects a player's technical attributes (e.g. wrist shot, pokecheck, etc). All of the player's technical attributes should average according to their CA. However, the game allows some flexibility in that any technical attribute can be plus or minus 6 from the average. So a player with a CA of 80 should have technical attributes averaging 8, but any such attribute can be as low as 2 or as high as 8. So if a player were to develop from a CA of 10 to a CA of 200, he wouldn't necessarily need to have all technical attributes at 14 - they could in theory be anywhere from 8 to 20.

When creating players at start-up, I've noticed (as have others) that just setting the player's CA isn't enough if his attributes have all been set. The game doesn't seem to rigidly amend a player's technical attributes if you boost/reduce his CA. I find CA changes only to be effective if you have made a lot of the player's technical attributes zero (because then the game will randomly generate an attribute in accordance with his CA).

What I'm trying to say is that it is unclear how effective updating just the CA is. I think if you want to make a player a guaranteed superstar, you need to look at additional areas - e.g. Offensive and Defensive Role play a big part in how good a player is, as does Consistency. You may also want to think about what attributes will ensure that the player responds well to training/practice (because if he does not get the most out of practice then he is not likely to reach his potential) - so perhaps consider things like Work Rate too.

[nino33]

Non-technical attributes are not affected by the player's CA. Any player can have any rating from 1-20 for a non-technical attribute regardless of what their CA is. So these are attributes such as the mental attributes and physical ones - such as work rate, speed and consistency.

I thought physical (like speed) was technical, because it could change/develop over time

In my first post at the top of this thread I mentioned this, but described it in terms of permanent and non-perrmanent Atts (permanent Atts essentially being the mental Atts + the "hidden" Atts)

[Lazion]

Non-technical attributes are not affected by the player's CA. Any player can have any rating from 1-20 for a non-technical attribute regardless of what their CA is. So these are attributes such as the mental attributes and physical ones - such as work rate, speed and consistency.

I thought physical (like speed) was technical, because it could change/develop over time

This picture shows attributes where current ability takes effect. This is player with 10 CA and 20 ratings in every skill.

[nino33]

Thanks very much!!
What a smart idea!!

[archibalduk]

Nice!

If we combine that idea with the Saved Game Editor, we can see for sure which hidden attributes are affected.

[Animal31]

I thought we already knew that

the picture I mean

[nino33]

Of the 27 Attributes shown/visible 24 were "as expected" for me - but I did not know that Speed was a "permanent Attribute" + I did not know Anticipation and Creativity were "changing/developing Attributes"



EDIT
I updated my Attribute wall chart. I have all permanent Attributes circled in thick black felt, and I had Anticipation/Creativity circled, which I’ve now removed! HaHa - In doing so I noticed a small printing red ink note about Anticipation “ANTICIPATION – This Attribute can change/grow…maybe mostly in Junior” (so much for red drawing my attention to it! HaHa my old eyes can’t see the small printing from my desk 10 feet away!).......I’ve also updated my wall chart by circling Speed! I for sure did not realize it was a permanent Attribute (thanks again Lazion!)

[archibalduk]

I thought we already knew that

the picture I mean

I have a list of all attributes categorised according to technical/non-technical (but not like Nino's brilliant wall charts and notes on cardboard ). However, I think the screenshot may have one or two attributes which I need to update on my list.

[Lazion]

I noticed that odd ratings in saved game editor means that those attributes are technical skills 'controlled' by CA.
So I can add Decision and Fighting in that list.

I also finally figured out that odd (0-255) saved game attribute rating system.
0 rating means average rating for CA. E.g. for 100 CA player 0 is 10 rating and for 200 CA player 0 is 15 etc.
Attribute rises by every 10 points (or so) in sg editor so for 100 CA player 10 rating in sge means 11 rating in game and attributes decreases by every -10 points so 245 rating in sge is 9 rating in game.
It basicly uses above or below average rating system in saved game editor.

[Animal31]

Speeds not exactly permament, as seen by Varga, so its just not affected by CA, but alot of attributes will grow

the ones that dont are
Agression
Bravery
Determination
Flair
Influence
Workrate

[Lazion]

Speeds not exactly permament, as seen by Varga, so its just not affected by CA, but alot of attributes will grow

the ones that dont are
Agression
Bravery
Determination
Flair
Influence
Workrate

True, but speed, agility and acceleration doesn't change that much. Usually I'v seen those attributes rising by 1-3 points at max.
Stamina can skyrocket for almost as much as 10 points, so for young players that should be pretty low.
I can't say for sure, but I think that influence can change by few points too.