The Official On-Ice & Off-Ice Stupidity thread

[nino33]

The Winterhawks sure were hammered...a radio station here in Edmonton was wondering if there was more to the story...the sanctions seem a bit harsh to me (I wonder if other teams have done the same things, or are Portland's known actions well beyond the norm?)

[bruins72]

That seems extremely harsh. Honestly, I would have thought that these junior teams would have some sort of summer camp programs for their players and prospects. It makes sense. I don't understand why they're being penalized for that. I also don't have an issue with them flying their parents out a couple times to see them play. It seemed to imply that they were families that couldn't afford to do it on their own. I have no problem with that. This whole thing seems ridiculous to me.

[Primis]

That seems extremely harsh. Honestly, I would have thought that these junior teams would have some sort of summer camp programs for their players and prospects. It makes sense. I don't understand why they're being penalized for that. I also don't have an issue with them flying their parents out a couple times to see them play. It seemed to imply that they were families that couldn't afford to do it on their own. I have no problem with that. This whole thing seems ridiculous to me.

Bob MacKenzie speculated that Portland was previously warned about this or something and that it continued, which is why they lowered the boom on them.

It's also entirely possible that the WHL has every intention of pulling an OHL and later quietly reducing the punishment like the OHL did for Windsor, so that the initial story has harsh punishment and they look better for it.... but they then later reduce it and that part goes under the radar for most. I personally thought that was a giant cop-out by the OHL and given the shady way major juniors operate it wouldn't surprise me but the WHL in a week reduces the punishment after the story has fallen off everyone's radar. For all the rubbish the NCAA takes in the US for being corrupt, they can't seem to hold a candle to the Canadian juniors system. I can't count the number of times a problem kid at Michigan State or another NCAA school either gets dismissed from the program or leaves because they can't hang in there academically, and then they go to the WHL and somehow we're to believe they're no problem and suddenly a really good student off the ice. Uh-huh, right...

Anyhow, they too have to be careful with benefits or else they'll be considered a true professional system (which they are anyways). But the CanHL tries desperately to maintain the illusion of amateurism, much like the NCAA.


RE: Riley Sheahan... as a Wings fan I'm extremely bothered. Sheahan had Brendan Smith's ID on him he was using to get into bars and drink (because Sheahan is underage, and Smith is not). It's unlikely he had Smith's ID without Smith knowing. Smith had *serious* underage alcohol issues of his own while at Wisconsin (my understanding is Madison police were very familiar with him and he was involved in 4 or 5 alcohol-related incidents). That he now was apparently/probably willing to help Sheahan drink... it's not a good sign that Smith himself has cleaned up probably. Nor is it a good sign of leadership in Grand Rapids currently, both coaches and the player leadership group.

Ken Holland needs to go into GR, meet with head coach Jeff Blashill, Smith, and Sheahan, and lay down the law. I don't care how important Smith is to Detroit's now, his immature act has gotten old and if he's not going to change they need to dump him. The org can't afford a clown like that. And Sheahan needs to be given the ultimatum as well. I remember when Rick Comley was coaching at Michigan State (and was shortly after hiring) and he took a lot of rubbish from people because he found out AJ Thelen was drinking underage and he just outright cut him from the team. It's a serious thing, and I hated Comley at MSU quite frankly but always appreciated that he had no tolerance even for a talented player like Thelen (who at the time was seen as a sure-fire NHLer).

FWIW, parts of Grand Rapids are a mess of one-ways. I've gone the wrong way down a one-way there before (downtown, sober, in the middle of the day, with a van full of kidsd) because the one-ways can kinda' trap you and force you to go the wrong way. I can only imagine how easy it would be to do drunk.

[batdad]

Anyhow, they too have to be careful with benefits or else they'll be considered a true professional system (which they are anyways). But the CanHL tries desperately to maintain the illusion of amateurism, much like the NCAA.

THe CHL is not a professional hockey league. The players are not paid like professionals. Yes the schedule is designed like a pro league. But sorry....all the kids are amateurs up until the point they sign a pro contract with an actual professional league. 15-18 year olds cannot be considered professional by getting a per diem. rubbish, NCAA players get a per diem when they are on the road too...in all sports. Guess they are pros too then? It is not a per diem issue, it is a competition issue between NCAA and CHL.

Larger market teams make it sound as though they are a pro team, because the owners can make money hand over fist. In reality it is just the highest level amateur league out there....for kids who want to be professional players to show and develop their wares.

The problems with the NCAA eligibility do not in themselves make the CHL player a professional. The NCAA has an odd definition of what professional is....you can compete in golf as an amateur against professionals and still play NCAA golf. Tennis the same. But...if you play in the CHL against a kid signed to an NHL deal that has been sent back to junior (IE SVen Bartschi last season) you are considered a pro by the NCAA. A bit of a double standard.

There has been tons of discsussion about this in the last few months due to the attempt by some interesting characters to get a union together for CHL players. Have a look. Google CHLPA.
SOme of the kids that go NCAA are not smart. They just made it through their SATs. Barely. I mean what you appear to be saying about kids that go and then come to the Junior leagues is that they are dumb. Um....some kids in NCAA programs are not that smart. Seen the football and basketball players showing any signs of brains?
There are straight A students in the WHL, OHL and Q just as their are in the NCAA. Decisions on playing where a kid plays are not solely related to grades...(I know you did not say that). Sometimes a kid like Kevin Conaughton (ex NCAA, ex Vancouver Giant, now Canuck property playing in AHL) leave programs that they are succeeding in (Michigan State I believe) for the CHL because it is what they need to get better and develop into a pro player.

SOmetimes players leave NCAA route because of grades sure...but not all the time (Casey Pierro-Zabotel left because of grades, Kevin Connaughton did not)

Different strokes for different folks.

What this all boils down to is what Nino said...would not be shocked if there was more to why Portland was hammered. There has been mention in some articles (Greg Drinnan in particular) that the attitudes of some Portland management types did not help them at all in this. There are all kinds of stories out there. Portlad was smacked hard, and likely there is more to the story as their always is.


As for Grand Rapids.....I am sure Holland has spoken with both prospects. I am sure Grand Rapids management has. This happened, as B72 pointed a month ago and is now only coming into the public eye. Stupid move by Sheahan, and Smith. They will get their talking to if they have not.

[Primis]

Some of the kids that go NCAA are not smart. They just made it through their SATs. Barely. I mean what you appear to be saying about kids that go and then come to the Junior leagues is that they are dumb. Um....some kids in NCAA programs are not that smart. Seen the football and basketball players showing any signs of brains?
There are straight A students in the WHL, OHL and Q just as their are in the NCAA. Decisions on playing where a kid plays are not solely related to grades...(I know you did not say that). Sometimes a kid like Kevin Conaughton (ex NCAA, ex Vancouver Giant, now Canuck property playing in AHL) leave programs that they are succeeding in (Michigan State I believe) for the CHL because it is what they need to get better and develop into a pro player.

Oh I know. Duncan Keith left MSU for the WHL almost purely for developmental reasons. It happens, no doubt. He has hardware that says he probably made the right decision too, much as it hurt the program. And I know there are CanHLers who take education seriously.

For every Keith though there's a Jeremy Jackson, who was dismissed from MSU in 2001 because his grades and attitude were terrible, and he promptly left for the WHL where he played for 3 more full seasons. It's highly unlikely the kid's attitude problem and scholastic interests and focus magically improved in an environment where he was expected to travel MORE and play MORE games. It's a lot more likely Vancouver and then Lethbridge shielded him somewhat and coddled him, especially the latter given his on-ice production there.

My point was, for all the messed-up-ness and problems in the NCAA, isn't it amazing that when a kid gets drummed out of an NCAA program for drinking, bad grades, or something he can flee to the OHL or WHL and suddenly "not have those problems"? Either Canadian juniors is a miracle rehab program, or they're just better at covering things up and shielding the kids' failures. And the pessimist in me says it's more likely the latter, because a lot more money is at stake in Canada than it is even with the few NCAA programs that *can* generate revenue.

That's why I don't consider Canadian major juniors to be "amateur", any more than NCAA Div. I football is "amateur" anymore. And why, for all its flaws, I see NCAA hockey as a whole lot less-stained than the WHL and OHL (this doesn't usually seem to be a problem in the QMJHL.... usually). I'd have a lot more respect for the WHL and OHL if they started handing out more of these types of sanctions against teams and then sticking to it and not later reducing them because they feel bad. It's like watching the SEC in football and knowing at least half the programs are cheating, and even when evidence comes up nothing ever gets done with it. So Cam Newton's dad can ask for $$$ for his kid to transfer to Auburn or Southern Miss. but nothing ever comes of it.... even though he then did transfer to Auburn and win a national title. That's what watching the OHL and WHL operate is like.

[Loosie]

That seems extremely harsh. Honestly, I would have thought that these junior teams would have some sort of summer camp programs for their players and prospects. It makes sense. I don't understand why they're being penalized for that. I also don't have an issue with them flying their parents out a couple times to see them play. It seemed to imply that they were families that couldn't afford to do it on their own. I have no problem with that. This whole thing seems ridiculous to me.

The only way it would be an issue is if they promised the parents to pay for flights before the kid joined the team. Because then it becomes..'Hey, get your kid in with Portland, they'll pay for your fligths to games' Where as a team like say..Prince George might not be able to do or afford that.

I do think there is more to it then what Portland posted though becuase it does seem harsh compared to what was 'admitted' too.

[batdad]

Anyone honestly think Portland going to admit up front to everything that has gone on? There clearly HAS to be more to the story than has been told.

But the Winterhawks were fined $25K for their first presss release according to some sources (Coming Down the Pipe) and some are speculating that for their second press release (which followed the WHL release saying they had 54 violations confirmed by an outside auditor) that Portland is likely to be dinged another $50K

If....and that is a big if...the Winterhawks were telling ALL of the truth....then the punishment is harsh. If not...well who knows.

[bruins72]

I'm totally ignorant in regards to how things work in the juniors but how much recruitment is really involved? Aren't player rights determined by the draft? How much do they really need to do to convince these kids to play for them? "Do you want to play junior hockey? Okay, you're playing here".

[Loosie]

I'm totally ignorant in regards to how things work in the juniors but how much recruitment is really involved? Aren't player rights determined by the draft? How much do they really need to do to convince these kids to play for them? "Do you want to play junior hockey? Okay, you're playing here".

It's mostly with players that either break their NCAA commitment, or are thinking about NCAA vs. CHL. There are also alot of players parents that try and manipulate the draft. (ie Refuse to report or demand a trade to a 'more desirable' team.)

[Manimal]

There are also alot of players parents that try and manipulate the draft. (ie Refuse to report or demand a trade to a 'more desirable' team.)

This has been a big thing, especially in the OHL. Some teams (London, Kitchener, Windsor for example) have it a lot easier to attract players

[batdad]

Just to clarify something. MANY players in Juniors come through the draft. But many also are "listed" players that were not drafted or relased by teams that drafted them.

Example: Kevin Connaugton. Drafted by Kootenay ICE, decided on college. Ice originally put on "College list" to keep his rights. But ....when he DOES go to school ICE release him as figure he will not be coming. Next season, Vancouver Canucks draft him. Vancouver Giants list him...and he goes and plays with the Giants.

Another example of a list player: Milan Lucic. Never drafted. Giants decide to list him. He plays, and boy does he do well.

Teams can list any player in their league recruitment area....that is not on another teams protected list.

I am going to say this: College committed players leave for many many different reasons and join the CHL. Grades, NHL teams, competitveness of team in the league they are in, ice time, closeness to home, coaching, desire, etc etc. The biggest one is NHL draft. Seth Jones is a kid who had a choice. Some say he screwed North Dakota over by going to Portland. he did not. HE NEVER ACTUALLY COMMITTED to North Dakota. He always said "If I go to college I will play at North Dakota, but I will not decide until after my year at NTDP...which was last year". Portland trades for him, he decides to go there as he realizes:

1. Draft...ranked high...real high.
2. Portland good team with chance of winning.
3. Portland coaching outstanding.
4. Development schedule will turn into a pro player faster.

Undrafted and unlisted Americans are usually more difficult to convince to play CHL, because they have grown up with the NCAA system and understand how it works better. At least that is my view. Also....closer to home theory as is USA. Grades and development schedule also play a big role.

CHL teams don't recruit the same way. But they do have to convince players to play for them. The better ones in particular always have options. But most of them realize that if they are bound for pro hockey the CHL is the right place for them. Later bloomers go the NCAA route.

[Loosie]

There are also alot of players parents that try and manipulate the draft. (ie Refuse to report or demand a trade to a 'more desirable' team.)

This has been a big thing, especially in the OHL. Some teams (London, Kitchener, Windsor for example) have it a lot easier to attract players

*cough*Domi*cough*

[Primis]

So what's this I hear now about Everrett? They're now potentially in similar trouble as Portland too?

[batdad]

Where are you hearing that? Reading on a reputable site, from a reputable source or is this just speculation at this time from random interwebs people? There are lots of teams that could be looked at, in fact in the WHL there are 21 or 22 teams that may have issues to watch out for.

[Primis]

Where are you hearing that? Reading on a reputable site, from a reputable source or is this just speculation at this time from random interwebs people? There are lots of teams that could be looked at, in fact in the WHL there are 21 or 22 teams that may have issues to watch out for.

I was reading a junior hockey article this morning that mentioned Portland and then made mention that it looks like Everett looked to be "facing the same problem as Portland", and given the preceding content and the context I assumed that to be referring to Portland's sanctions, and less now their possible financial/arena issue (which is a possibility I guess).

It made something sound imminent for Everett.

[batdad]

What article? The only "problem" facing Everett is that last season about January or so they hired the ex Player Development guy of the Winterhawks. The relationship there is that the GM of Everett is supposedly, from several articles a VERY unliked guy within WHL circles. This is because he used to heavily recruit against WHL teams when he was in the BCHL, and caused alot of ill will between long time WHL people and himself.

Oh...and if Everett is doing it, they are doing it with the wrong players. They are not very good from what i can see. Certainly not doing it as well as Portland has apparently.

The gentleman in question is Gary Davidson, and he has hardly been in Everett long enough to cause issues. But that may be where someone read WAY WAY too much into something and put it in an article. Can you post a link to it?

[Primis]

What article? The only "problem" facing Everett is that last season about January or so they hired the ex Player Development guy of the Winterhawks. The relationship there is that the GM of Everett is supposedly, from several articles a VERY unliked guy within WHL circles. This is because he used to heavily recruit against WHL teams when he was in the BCHL, and caused alot of ill will between long time WHL people and himself.

Oh...and if Everett is doing it, they are doing it with the wrong players. They are not very good from what i can see. Certainly not doing it as well as Portland has apparently.

The gentleman in question is Gary Davidson, and he has hardly been in Everett long enough to cause issues. But that may be where someone read WAY WAY too much into something and put it in an article. Can you post a link to it?

Hmmm.

I got to it yesterday through clicking through several links on several articles, and while I know the site it was on, I can't seem to find the article on that site. It was on juniorhockey.com.

EDIT: In true Me fashion, I hit "Post" and then of course finally found it:

http://www.juniorhockey.com/news/news_d ... s_id=77402

"The recent trouble in the Western Hockey League with the Portland Winterhawks, and the strong possibly (sic) that Everett is in the same boat, has prompted conversations of a regional super-league to take control of the level of play on the west coast."

I came across this because the article talks about a swap of ECHL/AHL franchises first (which is a rumor that has serious legs of its own I'm finding, but is a whole other story I don't want to get into right now), and then questions what would happen with the remaining western ECHL teams.

I know Portland is having arena issues (they badly need renovations apparently and the WHL is all-but-publicly-demanding they make them) and that the WHL sanctions have made those financing the required renovations balk a bit and question continued involvement in the WHL. I haven't seen a darn thing anywhere though suggesting the Silvertips have arena issues. So I assumed the "same boat" had more to do with possible sanctions. Though I don't know the financial health of either team I guess.

[batdad]

From what I read in a Portland blog on the arena renovations...it is not really balking. The city had a meeting to discuss and vote on their $ contribution THE DAY AFTER the sanctions came down. WIth what was happening ....so many saying this had pushed the Winterhawks over the cliff for their future....the city decided to wait to vote until things were clarified. So I think the vote on Portland City $ for the Rose Garden will be next month.

That article is PURE SPECULATION...there is nothing in it to even support their comment on Everett. Totally inappropriate. One can only surmise that they are ill informed on the situation and that because Gary Davidson jumped to Everett last season they are in trouble too. Highly doubt it. Noone with any information on this situation and the league is writing that way.

Rumors of the National Hockey League's desire to have an established west coast division

. This quote in particular makes no sense. It has nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph, never mind the article. And rumours? Really? The NHL tried to make a West Coast division last season. And they are on the record as saying they want a team in Seattle when the arena is complete, and it is viable for the league. Plus...what the heck does that have to do with minor hockey or junior hockey or ECHL-AHL issues?

Wow....this article is all over the map. I am going to assume the guy who posted an article WITHOUT citing any sources, and without any follow up or explanation for a stupid accusation like the one you posted for me above....meant to type NAHL not NHL, but has no brains and can't figure it out even a day later.

The first thing that comes to mind is that USA Hockey would never approve it and that there are simply not enough players to sustain it. Not so fast.

Then he discounts his entire theory. Wow. Sounds like this idea for a league which takes some pro teams and some junior teams and puts them in one league is a FANTASY. Complete and total fantasy. What the hell? This guy could easily, very easily be mgsports. Except not every team is based out of St Louis, on Mars and not all are the Blues.

USA hockey would not approve? LOL. Who cares. No way a team with the tradition of the Portland Winterhawks, and a CANADIAN owner leaves the WHL. No way, no how. Everett? Not likely....Seattle, SPokane Tri Cities. LOL....this guy is insane

he goes on to mention...that teams would have to completely keep books open, re NCAA eligibility. LOL. Portland? Hah.

Imagine the strength, level of play, and market value of the super-league

Key word is IMAGINE. Like in imagination, like in dream, like hallucination.

I cannot decide if this is the LEAST credible article I have ever seen, and is totally fabricated and OFFENSIVE, or fabricated while on a hallucinogen and absolutely hilarious. It is completely a farce though. That much you can tell. NOT ONE PERSON even anonymous is quoted in it.

I am not saying you believe it Primis....just pointing out its fallacies.

Plus look where the author lives. LOL. Yeah he is the premier hockey writer.

Stephen Heisler resides in Puerto Penasco, Mexico

. He reads the internets and makes stuff up. LOL. Too funny. And he has a Mexican classic rock station.

Just because someone sets up a website and starts writing stuff on it, does not mean they KNOW ANYTHING about the subject they are writing on. For example, I could set up a PMS support website and write and blog about how my belly feels during a week every month, but what the hell do I really know? This guy has nothing.

So now that we have destroyed his credibility here...lets not make mention of Everett being in trouble. This guy is reading things on the internet just like us, and has no brain cells.

[batdad]

LOL at Seguin

[philou21]

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while holy rubbish.

"He also did not know how to operate the dishwasher . . . when he ran out of clean plates, glasses and cutlery, he bought plastic tableware."

Come on Tyler....washing it with your hands maybe??

[archibalduk]

Haha that's hilarious. I can't believe he littered the floor with coins. Where the hell did he get them all from?! I know I've always got some coins in my wallet, but there's no way I've ever had enough to litter the floor with them... Maybe it's change from the coke machines!

[archibalduk]

"He also did not know how to operate the dishwasher . . . when he ran out of clean plates, glasses and cutlery, he bought plastic tableware."

I knew someone at university who used to do that! He was a pretty lazy guy - lived off microwave meals (TV dinners) the whole year IIRC.

[batdad]

"He also did not know how to operate the dishwasher . . . when he ran out of clean plates, glasses and cutlery, he bought plastic tableware."

I knew someone at university who used to do that! He was a pretty lazy guy - lived off microwave meals (TV dinners) the whole year IIRC.

Was his name Calv? Also, from the close dates on the birthdays, I am starting to wonder....is Calv mgsports? Hmm.

[Danny]

I'm questioning the truth of this article, no mention of used condoms.

[batdad]

LOL. That's cause Tyler could not get any. I mean he still has a high pitched voice. I mean coke bottles not beer? LOL. Probably ate KD the whole time he was three and grilled cheese (if he could figure out the toaster) with Ketchup. Has not figured out how to order pizza.