TBL:DB "Unfaking" General Discussion: DOWNLOAD NOW

Shooter13 · Post by **Shooter13** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:41 am

Just bought the game about a week ago (I know, I'm late). ! I tried it out a little, liked it, but found myself somewhat disappointed about the legal issues that caused all the faking of names, arenas, etc. So I searched out the EHM online community, and lo and behold, the genuises here at The Blue Line have addressed anything I could possibly have thought of that might improve the game. When the new database is complete, I will be able to quit my job, dump my girlfriend and get down to some real general managing! Bravo, and thanks again!
*standing ovation*

Post by **inSTAALed** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:10 am

Shooter13 wrote:Just bought the game about a week ago (I know, I'm late). ! I tried it out a little, liked it, but found myself somewhat disappointed about the legal issues that caused all the faking of names, arenas, etc. So I searched out the EHM online community, and lo and behold, the genuises here at The Blue Line have addressed anything I could possibly have thought of that might improve the game. When the new database is complete, I will be able to quit my job, dump my girlfriend and get down to some real general managing! Bravo, and thanks again!
*standing ovation*

Why are the rest of you not as dedicated to the game as Shooter?

Smetana · Post by **Smetana** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:03 pm

I'm afraid I have to ask: Why are you folks spending your time on this project, when it has already been done?

The "official" unfaking database made no changes to player attributes. Only in their current project are they altering attributes.

Not trying to stir things up, but it seems like you guys just don't like Kidhander and company, and want your own "brand name" on what is essentially the exact same information...

The Hutch · Post by **The Hutch** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:48 pm

Shooter13 wrote:Just bought the game about a week ago (I know, I'm late). ! I tried it out a little, liked it, but found myself somewhat disappointed about the legal issues that caused all the faking of names, arenas, etc. So I searched out the EHM online community, and lo and behold, the genuises here at The Blue Line have addressed anything I could possibly have thought of that might improve the game. When the new database is complete, I will be able to quit my job, dump my girlfriend and get down to some real general managing! Bravo, and thanks again!
*standing ovation*

Don't dump her, let her be the "assistant GM" to feed you and wash you while you play, and work her way up to covering for you while you're in the loo.

Post by **Calv** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:56 pm

Smetana wrote:I'm afraid I have to ask: Why are you folks spending your time on this project, when it has already been done?

The "official" unfaking database made no changes to player attributes. Only in their current project are they altering attributes.

Not trying to stir things up, but it seems like you guys just don't like Kidhander and company, and want your own "brand name" on what is essentially the exact same information...

What exactly makes it 'official' unfaking, surely it can't be 'official' due to the fact that would mean SI would support something that is breaking licences...

ElQuapo · Post by **ElQuapo** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:54 am

Smetana wrote:I'm afraid I have to ask: Why are you folks spending your time on this project, when it has already been done?

The "official" unfaking database made no changes to player attributes. Only in their current project are they altering attributes.

Not trying to stir things up, but it seems like you guys just don't like Kidhander and company, and want your own "brand name" on what is essentially the exact same information...

I have to admit, I have also never understood this split in the EHM community. We are all trying to do our best to make EHM better, and when the authors say nothing in the 1st version of the "unfaking" has been changed (except unfaking of names, arenas etc.), then why do people not believe it? The unfaking team has absolutely no reason to lie about this. If they have changed attributes, then they would have said so. Attributes have been changed in the next version of the "unfaking" as well as an enormous amount of fixes and enchancements, but the first version is only unfaking of names, arenas etc.

That being said, the obvious difference is, that the TBL unfaking will be based on the 3.0.3 database, whereas the unfaking is based on the 3.0.2 database as far as I know. Anyway, I see no harm in more than one unfaking. The more options for us gamers, the better. I just don't understand the conflict between some people from TBL and the unfaking people.

Can't we just all get along - we all want the same thing - the best EHM experience possible - and the more options the better

19nazzy · Post by **19nazzy** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:26 am

ElQuapo wrote:
Smetana wrote:I'm afraid I have to ask: Why are you folks spending your time on this project, when it has already been done?

The "official" unfaking database made no changes to player attributes. Only in their current project are they altering attributes.

Not trying to stir things up, but it seems like you guys just don't like Kidhander and company, and want your own "brand name" on what is essentially the exact same information...
I have to admit, I have also never understood this split in the EHM community. We are all trying to do our best to make EHM better, and when the authors say nothing in the 1st version of the "unfaking" has been changed (except unfaking of names, arenas etc.), then why do people not believe it? The unfaking team has absolutely no reason to lie about this. If they have changed attributes, then they would have said so. Attributes have been changed in the next version of the "unfaking" as well as an enormous amount of fixes and enchancements, but the first version is only unfaking of names, arenas etc.

That being said, the obvious difference is, that the TBL unfaking will be based on the 3.0.3 database, whereas the unfaking is based on the 3.0.2 database as far as I know. Anyway, I see no harm in more than one unfaking. The more options for us gamers, the better. I just don't understand the conflict between some people from TBL and the unfaking people.

Can't we just all get along - we all want the same thing - the best EHM experience possible - and the more options the better

He wasn't making a big deal out of it. He was merely curious, and to be honest I was wondering the same thing. As a consumer, I don't have need for 2 of the same things. Once it is unfaked, it is unfaked. Personally what I really want is an unfaked database with updated rosters, so I was disapointed when here they said that all they'll be doing is the same as is what is already out there.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:20 am

I don't have need for 2 of the same things.

From what I remember, the original unfaking's authors said that the first update has only name changes, and the later versions have altered attributes. This new TBL project, however, sounds like it will never change attributes. So, they really aren't the same thing for those of us who want no attribute changes.

Personally, even if this one does end up being the same, I would still download this one - simply because I've got a bad taste in my mouth after the conflict it took just to get a simple change list from the original unfaking authors. They wanted the trust from us that only name changes were made, but they didn't want to give us any justification for the trust.

19nazzy · Post by **19nazzy** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:36 am

B. Stinson wrote:
I don't have need for 2 of the same things.
From what I remember, the original unfaking's authors said that the first update has only name changes, and the later versions have altered attributes. This new TBL project, however, sounds like it will never change attributes. So, they really aren't

Well the first unfaking and this latest one from here are the same thing. I just find it kind of silly for people to use up a lot of their time doing something that has already been done. But it's not my time I guess so they can do as they please.

holydogg · Post by **holydogg** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:49 am

19nazzy wrote:I just find it kind of silly for people to use up a lot of their time doing something that has already been done. But it's not my time I guess so they can do as they please.

As you say, it's their time. Having the choice of a alternative is always good. Pepsi or Coke. Dell or HP, all Ramones songs same Sh*t, different colours but it's an alternative.

19nazzy · Post by **19nazzy** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:54 am

holydogg wrote:
19nazzy wrote:I just find it kind of silly for people to use up a lot of their time doing something that has already been done. But it's not my time I guess so they can do as they please.
As you say, it's their time. Having the choice of a alternative is always good. Pepsi or Coke. Dell or HP, same Sh*t, different colours but it's an alternative.

Ah but while those things you listed are similiar, they aren't exactly the same thing. In this case it is. You can't 'unfake' something differently. It's either unfaked or it isn't, which is why I wouldn't mind seeing this version do something different than what is already out there.

Looking at this objectively, what will entice me to use this version rather than one I can already get? As I said earlier, I would love for this to have updated rosters as this is what I'm looking for currently and the individuals working on the other one are not planning to do that.

holydogg · Post by **holydogg** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:02 am

19nazzy wrote:
holydogg wrote:
19nazzy wrote:I just find it kind of silly for people to use up a lot of their time doing something that has already been done. But it's not my time I guess so they can do as they please.
As you say, it's their time. Having the choice of a alternative is always good. Pepsi or Coke. Dell or HP, same Sh*t, different colours but it's an alternative.
Ah but while those things you listed are similiar, they aren't exactly the same thing. In this case it is. You can't 'unfake' something differently. It's either unfaked or it isn't, which is why I wouldn't mind seeing this version do something different than what is already out there.

Looking at this objectively, what will entice me to use this version rather than one I can already get? As I said earlier, I would love for this to have updated rosters as this is what I'm looking for currently and the individuals working on the other one are not planning to do that.

I think the attributes and trade things is a subtle difference no?
As B.Stinson says, only the "pseudo-moral" bad feeling about the original db can entice people to try another db, even if it in essence the same. Some users have principes and / or ethics issues..

Well, If you disagree, just keep using the original one, and stop thinking about this TBL "branded" db. You are not obligated to this project and no more to the precedent. Follow the flow of your heart!

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:18 am

19nazzy wrote:
holydogg wrote:
19nazzy wrote:I just find it kind of silly for people to use up a lot of their time doing something that has already been done. But it's not my time I guess so they can do as they please.
As you say, it's their time. Having the choice of a alternative is always good. Pepsi or Coke. Dell or HP, same Sh*t, different colours but it's an alternative.
Ah but while those things you listed are similiar, they aren't exactly the same thing. In this case it is. You can't 'unfake' something differently. It's either unfaked or it isn't, which is why I wouldn't mind seeing this version do something different than what is already out there.

Looking at this objectively, what will entice me to use this version rather than one I can already get? As I said earlier, I would love for this to have updated rosters as this is what I'm looking for currently and the individuals working on the other one are not planning to do that.

Like B Stinson said, there was a refusal on the part of the original unfaking folks to provide a listing of what was changed and what wasn't. From what I've read, several people worked on the original unfaking db. It's hard to keep track of what each person did. In the end, it comes down to a matter of trust. Would you rather trust the work of one person (making the actual changes, not providing the info) that supplies a listing of all changes made or would you rather trust several people who are just telling you that they only unfaked what needed to be unfaked? Me, I'm going with the single person that I know from TBL and trust. It's reassuring to know D88 is working on it after seeing the high quality of his face pack work.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:19 am

19nazzy wrote:Personally what I really want is an unfaked database with updated rosters, so I was disapointed when here they said that all they'll be doing is the same as is what is already out there.

Someone already stated that the problem with this is that it wouldn't work out due to the salary cap. For instance, Nashville wouldn't be able to afford Forsberg at the beginning of the season. They can however afford him now since the majority of his contract has been paid for.

19nazzy · Post by **19nazzy** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:29 am

bruins72 wrote:
19nazzy wrote:
holydogg wrote: As you say, it's their time. Having the choice of a alternative is always good. Pepsi or Coke. Dell or HP, same Sh*t, different colours but it's an alternative.
Ah but while those things you listed are similiar, they aren't exactly the same thing. In this case it is. You can't 'unfake' something differently. It's either unfaked or it isn't, which is why I wouldn't mind seeing this version do something different than what is already out there.

Looking at this objectively, what will entice me to use this version rather than one I can already get? As I said earlier, I would love for this to have updated rosters as this is what I'm looking for currently and the individuals working on the other one are not planning to do that.
Like B Stinson said, there was a refusal on the part of the original unfaking folks to provide a listing of what was changed and what wasn't. From what I've read, several people worked on the original unfaking db. It's hard to keep track of what each person did. In the end, it comes down to a matter of trust. Would you rather trust the work of one person (making the actual changes, not providing the info) that supplies a listing of all changes made or would you rather trust several people who are just telling you that they only unfaked what needed to be unfaked? Me, I'm going with the single person that I know from TBL and trust. It's reassuring to know D88 is working on it after seeing the high quality of his face pack work.

You make it sound like it's a matter of national security. And frankly, since I don't know anybody anyway, I trust/distrust them all the same. I don't see why people would try to mess with a database for a game that we all play by ourselves. If anyone did that and gets a kick out of it, they've got some serious mental problems.

Joe wrote:
19nazzy wrote:Personally what I really want is an unfaked database with updated rosters, so I was disapointed when here they said that all they'll be doing is the same as is what is already out there.
Someone already stated that the problem with this is that it wouldn't work out due to the salary cap. For instance, Nashville wouldn't be able to afford Forsberg at the beginning of the season. They can however afford him now since the majority of his contract has been paid for.

Yes but the salary cap can be adjusted and I'm sure most of us will change it because the cap is supposed to go up to $48 million next year.

Devils88 · Post by **Devils88** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:29 am

Hi Commuity!

Now after another discussion starts about this project, please let me make a statement to all the comments.

The unfaking project is (was) for the 3.0.2 rosters. Now the "Unfaking Crew" is making an update starting from the 3.0.3
database. But they said they have changed attributes. So ok, but thats not a database i want to play with ( this is my personal opinon).

I made the NCAA update from the unfaking db last year. but i don't want to start from a "edited" db.
so i have to make my own. thats what the TBL:DB will be.

A Database beginning from 3.0.3 rosters with no attributes change. as we know there will not be no other patch anymore, so this will be an ongoing project for time to come.

so you see, this is a different project.

updated rosters: as mentioned before the salary cap is the main issue. i thought about an roster update but didn't came to a solution. it doesn't work with a new config. file, also there's the date problem (2006). some people thought about a quickstart but there are still some issues (league details). also if you do an update now, it will last for only 4 months till free agency begins.

BTW: here's my last post from the closed "Unfaking Thread". nothing from the statement i made at that time has changed.

D'88 Comment

ElQuapo · Post by **ElQuapo** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:12 am

Devils88 :

Will you be fixing obvious mistakes, like dublicate players, wrong birthdates/birthplaces etc.?

If so I have also found some I could post.

Yes, birthdates and Places will be changed. also i'm going to fix these "mistakes". Now after the thread is closed please post it in a Private Message to me.....
thx for the support

Post by **archibalduk** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:46 am

Devils88 did an NCAA 'unfaking' database last year and so he's following suit by doing one this year. We've been waiting for the final patch before bothering in order to use the latest data by SI. Whilst the Unfaking guys are doing an Unfaking database for 3.0.3 it is going to have edited attributes - we don't want this. We just want something that corrects the names. What is wrong with SI's attributes? They have many researchers all over the world that have been to games involving the teams; thus you'd have thought their attributes would be perfectly accurate and if anyone is to do any attribute tweaking then it ought to be them. How many games have the Unfaking crew been to? I highly doubt that they together have been to games involving all of these players whose attributes they are going to change. This is why we at TBL want a database that uses the SI researchers' attributes.

The emphasis on our project is first and foremost on transparency; we want users to know exactly what has been changed. The TBL Admin Team have always felt that this transparency has been lacking with regards to the Unfaking Project. We had to constantly pester Kidhander to tell us what had actually been changed in the EHM 2005 database and even then he never gave us the full details. That's one reason we chose to have nothing to do with the Unfaking Database and would rather do one ourselves so that we know exactly what has been changed.

Let me make this clear: The reason for us doing our own 'unfaking' database is so that the users know exactly what has been changed. This project is being worked on solely by one person (Devils88), rather than many people, and so it's much easier to keep track of all changes made to the database.

This is nothing to do with rivalry; we just want an 'unfaking' database where we know exactly what has been changed. Users have the choice to use either the Unfaking Database, ours, or the original SI database. We aren't forcing anyone to use it; if you don't want to use it then don't. It's a simple as that. If you wish to use the Unfaking Database then go to www.eastside-uk.co.uk where you will find a copy of it. Also, you can register at their forums to discuss it.

I don't want anyone else arguing/debating/etc the differences between the Unfaking Database and the TBL:DB. This thread is for solely for discussing TBL:DB. Anyone wanting to discuss the Unfaking Database can do it at www.eastside-uk.co.uk - anyone discussing it in this thread will be warned and persistant offenders will be banned. I don't like the negativity starting to develop in this thread.

Post by **joehelmer** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:41 pm

Swedish Allsvenskan

AIK: Johanneshov (a.k.a Hovet)
Almtuna Is: Gränbyhallen
IF Björklöven: SkyCom Arena
Bofors IK: Nobelhallen
Hammarby IF: Johanneshov (a.k.a Hovet)
Huddinge IK: Björkängshallen
IFK Arboga IK: Arboga Ishall
Nybro Vikings IF: Victoriahallen
IK Nyköping Hockey: Peabhallen
IK Oskarshamn: Oskarshamns Ishall
Rögle BK: Ängelholms Ishall
IF Sundsvall Hockey: Gärdehov
Södertälje SK: AXA Sports Center
VIK Västerås HK: Rocklundahallen
Växjö Lakers HC: Växjö Ishall

---------------------------------------------

DONE
---------------------------------------------

holydogg · Post by **holydogg** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:53 pm

Do you have a approx date when this DB will be available?

Post by **archibalduk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:35 am

I'm afraid we don't want to rush this project; nor do we want to promise any date because we don't want to disappoint people.

Post by **Minstrel** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:52 pm

Well stated Archi. And as we don't delete threads everyone is free to look back at what happened when the "unfaking project" spanned out to being a heavily edited DB last year. I find it humorous that people feel that I especially have some personal vendetta with the unfaking authors kidhander especially. I am simply the one who attempted to resolve issues we had as a site serving the Community it wasn't then and isn't now a personal thing. We have rules, they chose to not follow those rules and then attack us about it.

Even so, you can all see that at SI (and additionally in direct email to Uros) I even offered to help them test this year's version if they wanted. I was ignored/shut out. They then refused (again) to provided a proper changelist and before we could even breach that subject they let us and everyone else know via the SI forums that they wouldn't be allowing it's download from anywhere but Eastside.

So being a project we know nothing of we can't really help people that have issues with it. So we'll be providing this project and supporting it as well.

Post by **Minstrel** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:03 pm

Joe wrote:
19nazzy wrote:Personally what I really want is an unfaked database with updated rosters, so I was disapointed when here they said that all they'll be doing is the same as is what is already out there.
Someone already stated that the problem with this is that it wouldn't work out due to the salary cap. For instance, Nashville wouldn't be able to afford Forsberg at the beginning of the season. They can however afford him now since the majority of his contract has been paid for.

Updated rosters simply don't work that well for EHM really; for them to not cause many issues that can cause them to be innefective they need to have moves made before the first playing year. As that cannot be changed the best we can do is provide a 2007 post-deadline roster for people to being 2006 with, and I'm not sure how poular that would be or how happy people would be with it.

That all can be done via a config file though which has no bearing on a database project.

Post by **batdad** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:12 pm

As Archi said, rushing this project would be bad news. Especially in light of a couple of posts from Graeme Kelly over on the SI boards that I am sure Devils88 and the mods here are aware of now:

Post 1: Scroll down to last post

Also, I apologise for something else too. I missed some key information for the last 2 years, and there's a bug in the mne2's editor because of it. This following function, needs to be coded and called before saving data to disk. You can skip it, if you didn't change a player classification or add/delete anyone. Calling this one time on already saved data (eg the unfaking update) will repair it.

Post 2: 5th post down the page

I have an early unfaking data update as a test database, and there are missing NHL rights for players . The game will already try to correct these where possible, but it looks like for your saved game, some of these are missed off.

I can repair this saved game, by setting the club contracted and club playing fields correctly, and fixing the NHL rights of players that are missing (but still playing in NHL). But not everything will be fixed. The crash should be, but I don't know what other data is messed up in your saved game.

Really I would advise to not use the unfaking update or the editor, as now I think you have proof of what troubles it can cause when innocently changing things. I've passed my findings onto mne2 who makes the editor, and he is gonna fix his bugs - but really the unfaking team would need to start again with a new build of the editor to avoid such problems, but my past experience tells me that they will continue to use the current one, which I can't really recommend

This makes me wonder, should we wait to see if the editor is updated/fixed, or will it be an issue at all?

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:41 pm

I can't get into the SI forums right now (for some reason, they're not loading for me) to check but how long ago did Graeme post this? I noticed there was a new release of the editor just the other day.

TBL:DB "Unfaking" General Discussion: DOWNLOAD NOW

Thanks!

Re: Thanks!

Re: Thanks!