Rules for not exploiting the AI

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:15 pm

Here is a set of rules for myself that I have come up to make the game more challenging/rewarding and realistic and not about trying to take advantage of the bad AI trade decisions

1. No trading when taking over a team until at least January 1; use what you have plus waiver pickups until then
2. In general no trading of superstars/contracts over $5M. The only exception is acquiring pending UFAs around the trade deadline or shipping out pending UFAs around the deadline if you are out of contention
4. No dumping of bad/overpriced long term contracts on AI teams (McCabe, Jovanovski, etc). Only exception is if the AI team comes banging down your door for that player
5. No use of the "Offer to All" feature. This makes it too easy to go through your roster and find the riff raff you want gone and take the best offer for garbage players/failed prospects, etc. If you want to move a guy, set his status to "Not Needed" and available and wait for the AI teams to approach you.
6. With the exception of pending UFAs in the last year of their contract, only make offers for players that AI teams have put on the block.
7. If you need to get a player off your roster due to roster space/cap issues and putting him on the block does not get a response, waive him. Do not try to squeeze draft picks out of it.
8. No trading players (with contracts bigger than say $2 M) within 1 year of signing them or giving them an extension. It's too easy to abuse the system by just resigning everyone and then trading the ones you don't need or don't have cap space for
9. You can trade up for only one of Tavares in 2009 or the Hasek regen in 2010, not both. When you've played the game for a while, you realize both become huge franchise players and I think it's unrealistic to trade a whack of picks to get them knowing how good they are when the AI teams won't know that
10. You can only use the editor to view potential ratings for players after you've drafted them. Until they have been drafted, use your scouting system/your own assessment of attributes to make draft decisions.

How do these look? I think following those makes it a more realistic GM experience.

Post by **vilifyingforce** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:09 pm

How about, don't use the editor period? And I never sign a player unless I fully intend on keeping him. And I think with your trade rules it would take years to revamp a roster. And quit McCabe bashing, in my game he is an elite D-man.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:17 pm

Once I have drafted guys, I am always curious to see what their potential is. But, because of the trade rules I set for myself, I won't be dumping off guys with disappointing potential ratings anyway, but I just want to know.

McCabe becomes a borderline elite d-man in most games I have done; Jovanovski does too; they just aren't at the Neidermayer/Pronger/Lidstrom level or the Pitkanen/Bouwmeester level in 2-3 years so I think they are way overpriced. Plus, I always get stuck with Leafs games on HNIC, so I see way too much of McCabe play that I can't help but blast the guy!

Yes, it will take years to rebuild rosters using these types of rules. But in real life under the salary cap era, it does take years to rebuild so I think it makes it realistic. Plus, with good tactics/practice schedule/management of the low end of your roster, you can have a team far outperform its talent level.

Post by **vilifyingforce** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:31 pm

HNIC?

AND in this new era of free agency I don't know if it does take years, look at the flyers.

But yes, I do agree that having a solid bottom roster makes life much easier.

My bottom two lines are Hollweg - Stoll (probably shouldn't of signed him, I traded for him in his contract year and let him walk, 30 games in I needed a C and got him for one year) - John Tripp

Betts - Sundin - Dingman

with Matt Foy and Boogey

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:45 pm

HNIC=Hockey Night in Canada. CBC seems to have this exclusive obsession with showing Leafs and only Leafs games when they are probably the worst and most boring of the Canadian teams (maybe better than the Oilers, but at least they have potential).

As far as rebuilding and the Flyers, I don't know that you can classify what they did as rebuilding. For one thing, they had only the one awful year; they were consistently a top contending team before that. Before last year, they made the playoffs 11 straight years. I think their problem last year was too many injuries and terrible goaltending. Adding a solid goalie and getting healthy is basically the reason for the turnaround. They replaced Forsberg with Briere, which is a lateral move; Timonen for Pitkanen is an upgrade for now, and the jury will be out in 3-4 years. The salary cap era should make it far harder to rebuild because it prevents teams like the Leafs and Rangers from outspending everyone.

Post by **vilifyingforce** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:58 pm

true it prevents my laffs from outspending, of course it didn't make a huge difference the last few years before the cap came in anyways. You need to have some sentience behind the wheel to atleast make a plan on what you're doing. I blame Cliff Fletcher for his absolute inability to see the power of drafting, the globe had a piece on their website featuring the All-time leafs straight from draft and compared it against the red wings. Drafted players from the last 20 years. On the team our only player who has star-ish potential is Kaberle, after that it drops off quite substantially, like down to Poni or Antropod. I still am going to trade for players that aren't on waivers, I just don't go crazy.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:51 pm

How do these look? I think following those makes it a more realistic GM experience.

To be honest, I think the best way to create a more realistic experience is to play realistically to begin with, rather than placing restrictions or delays on all short-cutting.

Post by **Tasku** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:41 pm

I'm with Dybbuk: just don't use the editor, period.

I actually like the fact that I don't know how good they're going to get. Treat them all as if they are the next Wayne Gretzky and if you don't see any progress within a few years, you can make the realistic decision of dumping him.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:25 pm

And it seems I missed the last one - the editor. As the others said, this is a definite no no at any point in the sim. Using it to see anything 'behind the scenes' is an extreme cheat, and it'll work wonders in destroying any attempts at a realistic experience.

Post by **Shadd666** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:50 pm

I double B. Stinson and Tasku: no editor, realistic way of play. No need to impose yourself tons of rules. If what you do looks realistic, do it. If it doesn't, don't do it. Simple as that. And in this way, using the editor is probably the less possible realistic thing to do. How often do you see a real life GM using an editor to see how the guys he drafted will become? Never, of course.

Goldberg · Post by **Goldberg** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:48 am

I set myself some rules also but these are rediculous. These add very little, if any, realism.

In order you said them,

1. What is the point? I rarely trade anyway. I build from within by drafting and signing prospects and then adding one or two FA per year. Your way, you end up playing with the previous GM's team. I agree don't trade everyone within the first six months but no trade at all?

2. I have a similar rule but more realistic. Anyone I sign over 5million will not be traded with the first half or more of his contract. So a 4 year deal means the player is with me for the first two years; a 5 year deal means no trade for 3 years. Any veteran I sign above 1 mil is a 1/3 rule. If a two year deal, no trade in the first; if a four year deal, no trade in the first year and a half.

4. No dumbping? I agree partly. I never dump a big salary I signed but I do dump the big salaries the previous GM signed. That's why they fired him and hired me.

5. Again I agree partly. I find offer to all a nice feature where most offers are obvious reject since they are horrible deals. I find offer to all a great way to start a conversation and see which team is more willing to talk. This is realistic since sending a fax or calling each GM would take less than an hour (if you don't discuss golf with them) and you get their interest right away. A discussion starter, that is all.

6. I like this one. I never think to check other teams' blocks. Personally I never trade for big names since they usuall cost too much and you can get a very similar big name in the free agency.

7. I agree partly. Mostly because I don't waste time with trading for a 7th round pick so this rule is useless for me.

8. See my answer to point number 2. Also don't sign more than two or three star players. Try for a more balanced team. They like the spot light. More merchandise is sold then. lol.

9. This one is the most fake. The one that just kills realism for me. In my game, Tavares plays for another team. So does Hasek regen. Why? Because I won. The only time in pro sports where I can recall a team trading all their picks for the 1st overall is in the NFL where the Saints traded everything to move from the 4th overall to the 1st overall in order to pick up running back Ricky Williams. And we know how that turned up.

The reason they did it was that the Saints had no offense by air and by run and had weak defense. If your team is so bad that you have a horrible goalie, weak defense, and no one in your system to score more than 15 goals. Then go for it; it just might be realistic. Then again, Atlanta didn't trade Kovalchuck and Pitts didn't trade Crosby.

If you want realism and not take advantage of the AI. Don't trade for them. Let them go to a team who needs them more.

10. As stated, the editor is a big no. Delete that software.

Post by **vilifyingforce** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Does anybody try to develop talent that isn't top-line players? I like trying to develop my role guys, Ray Flynn is starting to look like a good shut-down d-man, and Scott Skrudland might very well be my own Hagman.

Post by **batdad** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:34 am

I am curious dybbuk...have you read the Challenge section. Because there are lots of stories of developing fringe guys there...cause under the rules you pretty much have to.

TW Triton · Post by **TW Triton** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:31 am

I tend to try and get some of my players to produce better then what is expected from them, you know?

It's fun to see if you can actually teach them something and get them working hard.

Like I have said already on this website, I have had plenty of players on my NHL squad that sure weren't suppose to be there, but they produced well with the right tools.

As for rules or whatever to keep the game realistic. I must say that if you don't use any kind of editor, then it is realistic. There is nothing saying that people wouldn't take some of the trades that you throw out there. There are plenty of people out there that have no clue what they do till they see it on the other team.

Post by **Tasku** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:35 am

Yes, but those kinds of people don't manage NHL teams.

TW Triton · Post by **TW Triton** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:37 am

Agreed!

Post by **batdad** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:22 pm

Not anymore anyway....Mike Milbury Mike O'Connell, Mike keenan...Hmmm...Mike's allround. Do not hire a Mike.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:30 pm

Milbury is doing between period analysis for the Bruins games on our local sports channel, NESN.

Post by **vilifyingforce** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:56 pm

batdad wrote:I am curious dybbuk...have you read the Challenge section. Because there are lots of stories of developing fringe guys there...cause under the rules you pretty much have to.

Sort of flipped through it, but, I work as a contractor for canada post and I'm pretty much working 60+hrs a week form now till xmas, and 50+ afterwards, I play games in spurts, and I'm not a big fan of having to coach every game.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:12 pm

I definitely will consider playing the next challenge when it comes up. I don't like the coaching games rule, but I can live with it by just setting them on high speed and letting my set tactics run with it unless something comes up that obviously needs to be changed.

When is the next challenge starting?

Post by **batdad** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:17 pm

Not saying play the challenge. Just check out the stories to see the surprising development of some of the guys in there. Guys that noone would have thought could develop. One story has a bum defenseman winning the Calder, and I think in the top 3 for the Norris one season.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:44 pm

Another good rule is: no Niittymakki, at least unless you are playing as the Flyers or take him in a fantasy draft. Even with the TBL database, the stupid AI Flyers still thinks that Biron should be played over him, so he is still way too easy to acquire, and it just seems way too overpowering to get a 26 year old franchise goalie for peanuts and feels like cheating.

I guess you could argue that trading for Niittymakki in EHM is like the Flames in real life going after a certain unwanted 3rd string Sharks goalie a few years ago. However, that still isn't really the same situation because we see the attributes and know that he will be an elite guy, plus we also know this from playing previous games.

Post by **Shadd666** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:41 pm

No Niittymäki isn't enough. No overperforming players would be better

Niit' probably has the biggest impact, being a goalie, and can really turn a struggling team into Stanley Cup champions all alone in the game. But players like Marleau, Milan Michalek, Olli Jokinen, and others are way too big in the game (even if excellent in real life).

You should also not want to land easy-to-acquire super prospects like Bobby Ryan, Marc Staal, Ryan O'Marra, James Neal, Carey Price, and so on.

In the same idea, you should not make a trade to put on your hands on Tavares in 2009 or on Hasek's regen (around 2010-12).

Or you should deal for them, but only with trades corresponding to their real EHM talent/capacity, not what the other team think they worth. It makes things easier and less restrictive.

Making rules to avoid people from exploiting AI's weaknesses is a really hard task and is nearly impossible. You'll always have someone who'll find a loophole in the rules, forcing you to enforce the rules or make other rules, etc. Some basic rules are good, but then it's up to everyone to play honest and somehow realistic or deliberately cheat. Those who need to cheat are useally so poor gamers than they'll have poor results even by cheating, so they're not really a big concern

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:56 am

Marleau and Jokinen don't really bother me too much. They are next to impossible to acquire unless the Sharks/Panthers are doing a fire sale or you sign them as free agents, and they carry a decent sized contract, (5.5 M for both I believe to start and then it goes up to 6+ if they hit free agency). so you have to pay a reasonable price if you want them. Niitymakki on the other hand, the Flyers are literally giving away. I have seen them come to me unsolicited with an offer of Niity for a 4th rd pick. He also will play for 2M or less for 4 straight years, so it's ridiculous.

Taveras I think is overrated usually. I know his potential is random between 170 and 200, but he always seems to develop into an excellent first line center, but not a Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin/Kovalchuk level guy. Marc Staal I also think is fairly overrated. Whenever I have had him, he topped out at a decent #2/#3 D-man, not a franchise guy. As far as Ryan, O'Marra, etc, they don't seem that easy to get, at least with the TBL roster updated database.

Hasek's regen has random attributes, so can be anywhere from a league average starter eventually to a dominant force. If he winds up with poor anticipation, work rate, determination, etc, he can be a frustrating guy. He also usually demands lots of money and can be very moody/difficult. I have had him demand trades for new challenges after a long playoff run, I have had him refuse to practice because he thought I should have him in the AHL at age 19 instead of a year or two of AHL seasoning, etc. Maybe the developers tried to match Hasek's personality too.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:01 am

but only with trades corresponding to their real EHM talent/capacity, not what the other team think they worth.

Big, big, big, big emphasis on this one. And this should apply to all trades, too.

...Just because the AI lets you pull off lopsided deals, doesn't mean you have to follow thorugh. Looking at a trade from both standpoints(yours and the AI's) is a must if you want realistic trading, with no arbitrarily restricting self-rules.

Personally, I think all players should be open for trade, even the absurdly overrated... you just have to make sure you give up a fortune to get them, as would be the case when picking up these types of players in real-life. And of course, not going for players that shouldn't even be attempted(Crosby, Ovechkin)... even if the AI lets you.