Determination and Work Rate

[Kekkonen]

So, I started a new game after a long hiatus from EHM. I'm now early in the 2008/09 season, which means that the first regens are going to be appearing in the NHL draft pool. There's a (initially?) low-ranked Swedish defenseman there, whose attributes look promising, except for one thing -- his Work Rate, which is 6. He does have Determination of 16, though.

That got me thinking... what kind of a player has good Determination but lousy Work Rate? I can picture guys with high values in both attributes -- they work their behinds off, even when everything goes against your team. I can picture guys with low ratings in both -- they're lazy bums who really don't care. I can even picture a guy with high Work Rate but low Determination; he could be the kind of player who, when the going gets tough, runs around like a headless chicken, full of energy that gets spent on the wrong things. But what if you're determined and lazy? You're determined to float, no matter how badly things go?

[sjsharkz]

This is a very good question and have often wondered what happens when he has high determination and low work rate or vise versa. Quite a few explanations available here, maybe a player with high determination and low work rate would be determined to get out there and do something, but isn't willing to work hard enough to make something happen?

Or someone with low determination and high work rate, works really hard in the easier games, but in the harder more physical games goes missing?

[Kekkonen]

Or someone with low determination and high work rate, works really hard in the easier games, but in the harder more physical games goes missing?

Yeah, that's probably a good description; low determination gives a player the mental trait "easily discouraged", which could mean just that -- easily thrown off his game with the physical stuff. Maybe a high determination -- low work rate guy is someone who doesn't mind the rough stuff but has a tendency to float otherwise?

[Shadd666]

a player with high determination and low work rate would be determined to get out there and do something, but isn't willing to work hard enough to make something happen

That's how i see it...

Btw, a player with low determination or low workrate or low teamwork isn't someone i want in my team, no matter how skilled he could be.

[Kekkonen]

Low determination is the real killer for me. Individualistic floaters can be useful if they're insanely talented (think Pavel Bure), but there's at most about one spot available for them on my teams. And it isn't on defense.

[Shadd666]

Oh, they've got a spot in my teams too... It's either the trade market or the AHL

[bruins72]

I've always looked at workrate being over multiple games. A goalie with a high workrate can be a good starter, logging 65 or 70 games for you without getting burnt out. He shows up every day and is consistent. I look at determination being more about how that player plays in a game. He's the guy that just won't quit. He pushes himself to play harder when the opposing team is all over him. He's the last guy off the ice at practice.

Anyhow, that's how I look at them. IMO, determination is a little more important than workrate but I never like to see either one of them much below 10. I don't know for certain exactly what they do though. I don't feel that SI every gave a really solid definition of either or explained the difference well.

[David Zetterman]

A goalie with a high workrate can be a good starter, logging 65 or 70 games for you without getting burnt out. He shows up every day and is consistent.

I doubt it, such a goalie should havehigh ratings in natural fitness, stamina and consistency. I'd say that workrate reflects the player's activity during a shift (trying to find space instead of just skating around) , while determination reflects his ability to raise his ability a notch in crucial situations in benefit of the team. They overlap each others, but are not identical...

[bruins72]

Consistency and natural fitness are hidden ratings only seen with the editor. In terms of just playing the game, I think workrate factors in to whether a player can be regular starter. Of course stamina factors in.

[B. Stinson]

Consistency and natural fitness are hidden ratings only seen with the editor.

Unless it's a regen... their consistency will be visible in the info screen.

[timmy_t]

On the SI forums it was said that a player with a low determination will take longer to develop. I could never find anything about the type of player that would have both low determination and low workrate though...

[pinheirobcp]

Keep in mind, Wok Rate and Determination relates greatly to how the player improves over time. So, it's not just an "in game" attribute, but pratice and development aswell.

[vilifyingforce]

Determination to me is his ability to work at improving his game, while work rate is how busy a player he is ala Sean Avery/Darcy Tucker. So you naturally want high work rate guys on your pk.

[holydogg]

Determination to me is his ability to work at improving his game, while work rate is how busy a player he is ala Sean Avery/Darcy Tucker. So you naturally want high work rate guys on your pk.

I think Determination is also good for facing adversity. I often see my team losing and then in the 3rd, my highly determined players score the critical goals

Think Mats Sundin or Brenden Morrow.. (or Jeff Halpern in my game)

[Shadd666]

I could never find anything about the type of player that would have both low determination and low workrate though...

You mean soccer players? They are not in EHM

More seriously... for low determination and low workrate, just have a look at Alex Yashin. Naturally highly skilled, but so lazy and careless that he never performs when needed and ended fired. Those kind of guys are just useless to any hockey team, no matter how skilled they are. Well... maybe not 100% useless to a French hockey team, but certainly useless to any real hockey team.

[timmy_t]

Well... maybe not 100% useless to a French hockey team, but certainly useless to any real hockey team.

[Kekkonen]

Keep in mind, Wok Rate and Determination relates greatly to how the player improves over time. So, it's not just an "in game" attribute, but pratice and development aswell.

Yup. I remember one game where I drafted the Hasek regen, who had passable Determination but horrible Work Rate (3, I think). I ended up trading him fairly early (i.e. while most other teams saw him as a 5-star prospect), because his development was so slow. He never turned into anything special.

In previous versions, I have also seen the Lemieux regen turn into nothing but a journeyman, thanks to low single-digit Determination and Work Rate. Those ratings won't make a player all by themselves, but they can ruin one.

[Shadd666]

Those ratings won't make a player all by themselves, but they can ruin one.

darn true! That's why i filter out all the players with low determination and low workrate in my scouts reports from the draft. I just don't want to hear anything about them, no matter what their skillset is.

[sjsharkz]

Those ratings won't make a player all by themselves, but they can ruin one.

darn true! That's why i filter out all the players with low determination and low workrate in my scouts reports from the draft. I just don't want to hear anything about them, no matter what their skillset is.

I do the same thing, never draft anyone with low work rate and determination.

[pinheirobcp]

Anything below 10 in determination/work rate, for me, makes him a gonner.

I'll admit, I drafted the Yashin regen, but he could barely crack my AHL lineup despite having 18-to-20 (out of 20, of course), in almost EVERY physical and technical attribute (except hitting and pokecheck). Yes, even checking (a 20, wow). He ended up with around 20 games and 5 points despite spending the whole season in the AHL, as a 21 year old. My scouts drooled over his potential and skill, but he just didn't deliver. He also had a glaring 2 in consistency.

So, I traded him for two 1st rounders

So a wholeheartedly agree, determination/work rate don't make a player, but can surely destroy one.

[Kekkonen]

Regens does not inherit the original player's Work Rate and Determination. I'm pretty sure the Russian superstar center I had in the game I played all through last summer was Yashin v.2 (Yashin's retirement and this guy's appearance coincided, and he was a 6'3" Russian center with matching handedness). What's best, I didn't even have to pawn the farm to get him, he was still available in the draft at 30th overall.

[pinheirobcp]

Coincidently, I drafted Yashin's regen at 30th overall aswell

But hey, I know work rate and determination are not renegerated with the player, but the best trait to see whose regen the guy is are when they enter the draft.

Usually, guys are regenerated as 16 years old, so, if Yashin retires now, his regen will be draft-elegible in two years (or three if the regen ends up a past-Sept.15 born). Also, handedness are kept, size is similar and, obviously, skill level.

Or you can use the editor and see the same potential ability.

[batdad]

Only Euros are regenerated at 16. North Americans are 14.

[pinheirobcp]

Really?

I thought I had lost Crosby's regen, but seems not! Yay!