The best of both worlds ?

Post by **riz_si** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:04 pm

Seeing as I've recently did a retro gaming session and played both the original freeware EHM as well as NHL EHM 2007 for a short while, I was wondering how other people view the two generations of EHM games and what do you see as the best and worst bits of each game ?

Here's a few thoughts (mainly about the interfaces) to get the ball rolling...

Even despite the comments we used to get that the interface in NHL EHM games was too complicated compared to the freeware, I found that most of the time interacting with players and teams in the game was easier in the NHL EHM series than in the freeware. For example, I was browsing around the league for possible trade targets and when viewing a player profile, I wanted to get the player scouted and to do that, I had to first add him onto the shortlist, then close the player profile and go to the scouting tab and set one of my scouts to work on the shortlist (or alternatively assigning a scout to work on that team in particular). Similar set of actions could have been done in NHL EHM but in there I would have also had the straight-forward action of requesting a scout report straight from the player profile.

On the other hand, the interface in the freeware is nicely centered around your own team, so you never really felt lost in the game UI. In NHL EHM with the greater amount of leagues and data, and the interface not really centered around your team but your manager persona, it was possible to sometimes get a bit lost just by browsing around.

In general, the first time I went back to playing the freeware game, I was missing some features I was used to in the newer games pretty much constantly. All in all, the freeware is very limited in functionality but I guess that was also one of the strong points, as it was easy to get involved in the game. I also still like the old newspaper style news and HTML outputs of the freeware, compared to the same stuff in the newer games.

So, anyone else feel like sharing their views ?

Post by **batdad** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:14 pm

I have limited experience with the freeware, but I loved the news item styles in that compared to the new version.

I love the rotation around the GM in the NHL EHM series. It to me makes the game stronger than just being centred on the team in the freeware, and lets you have a better look at what is going on in the rest of the artifical hockey world more simply.

But because of my limited freeware experiences I don't want to get into this too much. Both versions are amazing.

I think the biggest thing around here that we hear about the game is how silly the AI can be at times. But that is just the way AI goes. Nothing is perfect.

We hear about little bugs (like the one where an AGM calls the player you are offering him a franchise player and no way would he deal him. But that is just little stuff.

The functionality of the game is by far the best I have seen in the newest version. could it be better? possibly...but I like it a ton.

I should really go and checkout the freeware again, but I am so addicted to EHM2007 I don't think I will ever get the chance.

Post by **riz_si** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:50 pm

Yeah, once you've grown into the NHL EHM versions, it is quite hard to go back to the freeware and properly play it when you know there is a much better alternative

Hypnotist · Post by **Hypnotist** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:36 pm

I came into the EHM world with EHM 2005 and I have never played the freeware version so I can’t comment on it.

If there was going to be any new development to this software or another freeware version, I would like to see scouting reports either able to be manipulated in game (i.e. career roles, line/pairing, current & projected team roles [key, core, etc]), rather than just the 5-star ratings or have the scouting info exportable into CSV/TDV/text data so that it could be copied directly into a spreadsheet/database for manipulation. Not talking about proprietary attribute data that would allow another dev to poach, just scouting reports. If anyone doesn’t understand what I’m talking about, download the scouting DBs I created for the NHL & QMJHL available on this site. These allow a user to look for “Goal-scoring” left wings or “Defensive” Right defensemen who have the potential to be a “Key” player rather than just by position and the star rating.

This would have saved me DAYS of data entry.

Basically, I would like to see more data manipulation capabilities in general so I don’t have to look at each individual player’s profile to get the info.

I know it would take a lot developing effort, but maybe more coaching controls as well. Like more real-time coaching options like real-time line changing and on-the-fly changes to line combinations.

Overall, I love EHM and hope that further development is only in stasis and not dead and buried

bobmcgoo · Post by **bobmcgoo** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:04 pm

Am I right to get my hopes up because someone from SI is asking about possible improvements for EHM?

Personally, I think the interface on 2007 is absolutely fine. Can't think of any improvements to that at all, even thinking incredibly cynically.

As Batdad said, the AI is the main (possibly the only real) problem with the game. Too many star free agents being let go at the end of the season, signing low-skilled players as fourth liners when there are plenty of better options available, not actually signing players that would fit their needs in real life (e.g. having 7 centers but only 1 LW), being willing to trade away star players for lots of junk players and picks, (and trading away injured star players for even less).

I think the only other real area for improvement would be more options in terms of team practice. It would be nice to be able to focus training on certain stats that your team lacks (say if you wanted a passing game then you could place high priority on passing practice and movement off the puck etc.).

There's possibly a couple of other minor improvements, but they're not really necessary.

Basically I think the thing most people (well, me at least) are looking for is customisation along the lines of OOTP Baseball. I don't know whether that would be possible or not, but I do know I'd happily spend £60+ for a game with that amount of possible human input because it would keep me occupied for years with all the different ways you could play the game. Not sure if you've played OOTP but there's a commissioner mode which allows editing of players and staff in game, which would be nice to have as well.

EHM is still a great game though - you should be proud of yourselves for making it

. Also, sorry for the essay!

Post by **riz_si** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:21 pm

bobmcgoo wrote:Am I right to get my hopes up because someone from SI is asking about possible improvements for EHM?

Technically no. Just because my username here refers to SI, it does not mean all my posts are coming from an SI perspective. I created my account here when NHL EHM was still in active development at SI, hence my username.

I might try and get that changed just so there won't be any misunderstandings even if I post here occasionally

Post by **riz** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:24 pm

Right, I've got a new alias then

Post by **batdad** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:38 pm

Heh. Well done riz, but now we might have to ban you because you are using a sockpuppet name...

Right, that will happen.

Anyway, glad to see you around, and please keep coming. Any suggestions for improving the game as it is are always welcome too.

BTW--Do you download any of the modifications we have here? Just curious, you don't have to answer. And do you get a chance to play this game very often?

Right...back on topic batdad or you too will be banned to the delight of many users.

harmonica · Post by **harmonica** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:36 pm

Some things on my wishlist.

I have played in two online leagues before with 2007 and really enjoyed it and I wish it was possible for better support and up to the 30 or so teams.

Open source would also be good and give the game unlimited life.

Adding a third potential to players that could cause them to either develop more or less than at their draft time. An example would be somebody who can have huge potential, but due to randomness, poor development or whatever would end up like Diagle. Or to find diamonds in the rough in the late rounds (see Detroit Red Wings).

More well rounded regens.

Retiring of jerseys.

Staff salary issues fixed. Better staff.

Teams have potential, so that after many years of success, small markets can compete more. Maybe more management depth.

I always thought it would be good to have friendships/hatred or drama play a larger role in the game. Chemistry matters.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:31 pm

Guys, let's try to pull this back on topic here. Riz asked about our feelings on the interface of the freeware version of the game compared to the SI versions. He didn't ask for suggested for new features we'd like to see in a new version of the game if there were ever to be one. Please try to stick to the topic.

As for myself... I've been playing EHM since... oh jeez... I'm going to say it was at least a couple years before SI released EHM:FE. Was that EHM 2004? So I'm guessing I probably played the freeware edition 2 or 3 years before that came out. I honestly think it would be impossible for me to go back to the old interface. Honestly, the freeware version looked more like a spreadsheet set inside a VB app. I like the way EHM 07 starts from the Front Office and it gives me a summary view of the most important details I need for my team. I can see my upcoming games. I can see my finances. I can see league leaders and I can see my team leaders. This is where everything starts. From here I can go to all of the different areas that I need to see. It's logical. Could it use a little improving? Sure. But it's a great deal better than it used to be.

Post by **riz** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:11 pm

Actually, it was my example that was only limited to the interface side of things. I don't mind if people want to post suggestions about what they would have wanted to see in the game, although I was mainly looking for things that already were in either the freeware or NHL EHM (or features that could have been better).

vanCanucks · Post by **vanCanucks** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:27 pm

I haven't played the freeware version, but I love the EHM 05 and 07 series...

Personally I would like more interaction between the press and the manager based on the hockey market (i.e. more interactions in Canadian cities and less so for the southern states market), somewhat like the FM series. I think this will add to the difficulty, especially if it affects team moral, reputation, chemistry, etc. Also, interaction between computer and human managers would be great!

If Managers have a loyalty/player management reputation factor, this may help make the trade market more realistic, (i.e. if a manager like to sign players just to trade them away in a couple months then players would be less willing to sign for that team, etc)

just my thoughts...

eternium85 · Post by **eternium85** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:23 am

Those Superstar players that you could, if you were lucky enough, find and draft in the freeware version were sweet. It was always thrilling to wait for the next draft and hope there would be one. Only managed to get one and he was a power forward, not a superb goal scorer in any way but really sound at defensively.

Ah, the good old days...

newsguyone · Post by **newsguyone** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:39 pm

Online functionality, Riz. ONLINE!!!!!
We are dying for the customization options of NHL 2007.

Not everyone is entertained by endless modifaction and 50 years of solo play.

Also, It would be awesome if practically every screem (draft/UFA/Stats) was text exportable).

Post by **batdad** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:15 pm

Actually you may be surprised by this newsguy..but I agree. Online capability is extremely important if there were to be any future edition of this game.

Post by **riz** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:57 pm

By online capability, do you mean head-to-head online play (the kind that was supported by the NHL EHM series) or the commish-driven online league (send in your lines, trades etc. to a commish who sims the games and outputs the stats onto a website) play ?

Post by **batdad** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:37 pm

They mean the head to head game, where everyone is online at the same time. The type of league newsguyone has run (Super Sweet Hockey league) with EHM 05.

THere has been a long list of issues with online for 07, which I won't get into, but mainly the issue revolves around only being able to control 16 teams at one time.

Post by **Shadd666** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:07 pm

I never played the freeware version, so i can't comment on its interface. Played only 05 and 07 versions, and both kept me out of job hunting for looooong time

I love the 07 interface centered on the manager. Makes sense. We are playing the role of a manager, in charge of everything within the team. So this front office view with an access to several areas of the franchise fits just perfectly to the situation.

There was one missing stuff on this view though: a direct shortcut leading to the practice screen. We manage practice day after day, so having to go on the roster page everyday to then go to the practice page was not that great. A direct link like the one for tactics would be good.

As for the main improvements needed, i see 4 of them. All have already be mentionned, so i'll try to make it short (random order):

1/ online play: it's good to have a solid and interesting solo game, especially for those who have a really random or limited free time to play (work, family, etc). But battling online is an even more superior experience to the game that would be enjoyed by all the guys who have lots of free time (ie not me anymore ^^)

2/ the AI: i think all its weaknesses have been mentionned, so needless to say more. Maybe just add some different "levels" of AI, so that newbies don't have the same difficulty as experienced players. The game is really accessible for newbies, which is great, but it becomes too easy for experienced guys after a while. Something has been started in this way on the 07 version with the "past experience" at the profile creation, but it was clearly not enough.

3/ practice: we need way more options there. If you look at the big boost on tactics between the 05 and the 07 versions, the same kind of boost is needed for practice.

4/ get rid of the licences: costs a lot of money to the game, and then strongly limitates the possibilities to customize the game. And i doubt it provided a big marketing boost to the game, so that's two negative points and no benefit out of it. Make it easily customizable, and let the communities do the work of putting real names into the game. The EHM is community is pretty strong (heh, we're still there 2 years after the development has been stopped), so the work will be done sooner than later.

Post by **Alessandro** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:46 am

I can not agree about the interface's problems. EHM's interface is plain great, I don't understand how can anyone say that "it's complicated". You can click through any part of the game/of the world very, very easily, and quickly. I would not change a bit of it, if EHM gets resurrected. The comparison with the freeware ain't easy to do, it's like comparing a 1/500 scale model car with the real vecture. The freeware was too easy, and it wasn't that good that you had only one league in. I know for NHL addicts changes next to nothing, but for european fans that's important. And you come from the old continent my friend

I understand that this is not the right place for bug reports, new versions suggestions etc, but I must tell out a thing: the NHL salary cap is a mess. This is the only thing in which the interface could improve. I mean, I have no clue for things like if I send a player down, will his full salary count against the cap or no? Whenever I send a prospect to the AHL, my total cap hit (not sure about the terminology, I hope I'm clear) remains the same, or changes...it seems randomly driven. One should know better such things as the cap in the NHL is really important.
And another thing. We should add some depth to the "League rules" section. For example, the number of games of playoffs series. I know that one can spoil it by seeing how many games are scheduled in the calendar, but heck, in some leagues in the semifinals you play best of five, and in the finals best of seven. I lost a title because of this...this thread made my day though. I cross the fingers.

Post by **Alessandro** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:49 am

Shadd666 wrote:
4/ get rid of the licences: costs a lot of money to the game, and then strongly limitates the possibilities to customize the game. And i doubt it provided a big marketing boost to the game, so that's two negative points and no benefit out of it. Make it easily customizable, and let the communities do the work of putting real names into the game. The EHM is community is pretty strong (heh, we're still there 2 years after the development has been stopped), so the work will be done sooner than later.

I'd love to agree with you and remember that the unfaking project started from me firstly, but we must be real. Who in America would buy a game that instead of Montreal Canadiens has the Nebraska Bazookas? For hardcore fans nothing changes, and for most of europeans too, but for the NHL at least it's fundamental to have them in, we must live with this...

Post by **Alessandro** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:50 am

riz wrote:By online capability, do you mean head-to-head online play (the kind that was supported by the NHL EHM series) or the commish-driven online league (send in your lines, trades etc. to a commish who sims the games and outputs the stats onto a website) play ?

I talk for myself: head to head

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:50 pm

Alessandro wrote:
Shadd666 wrote:
4/ get rid of the licences: costs a lot of money to the game, and then strongly limitates the possibilities to customize the game. And i doubt it provided a big marketing boost to the game, so that's two negative points and no benefit out of it. Make it easily customizable, and let the communities do the work of putting real names into the game. The EHM is community is pretty strong (heh, we're still there 2 years after the development has been stopped), so the work will be done sooner than later.
I'd love to agree with you and remember that the unfaking project started from me firstly, but we must be real. Who in America would buy a game that instead of Montreal Canadiens has the Nebraska Bazookas? For hardcore fans nothing changes, and for most of europeans too, but for the NHL at least it's fundamental to have them in, we must live with this...

EHM didn't really do all that well in America. It sold to the hardcore fans like us, not the casual ones. So we'd know that it would need to be "unfaked". Plus, look at Out Of The Park Baseball. It's got totally faked leagues and from what I understand, it does pretty well.

These a niche market games. If you try to appeal to the masses, you're going to miss out. If you focus on giving the best product available to your niche, you'll be in much better shape. So if Riz were able to put out a new version of EHM with some advancements the hardcore fans would like to see, I'm sure those hardcore fans would be okay with the fact that there are no real life league licenses and everything was faked. I'd much prefer that than not getting a new version of the game because the real life league licenses were too costly.

Hypnotist · Post by **Hypnotist** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:24 pm

bruins72 wrote:...I'd much prefer [having a faked database] than not getting a new version of the game because the real life league licenses were too costly.

I second that thought!!! I also agree with B72's statement about niche games. Cater to the hardcore and a game will have a better chance of growing (via radiating effects of rabid fans) than if you cater to disinterested masses and alienate the truly hardcore. Now if only I could get Bettman on the phone...

Post by **Alessandro** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:31 pm

Guys, you're talking with the wrong person. I don't give a f*ck about the NHL seriously, I only tried to be realistic.

Post by **batdad** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Alessandro---Please once again, make yourself familiar with the forum rules, especially the part about language. Thanks