The Official 2008-09 NHL Season Discussion Thread

Post by **Shadd666** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:20 am

Reinprecht ended up off that list pretty soon, batdad

As soon as the Yotes traded Jokinen in fact. But yeah, a guy like Halpern should have been a better fit for the Hawks than Pahlsson. Sure, as Peterman mentionned, Pahlsson is younger. But the Hawks are clearly not missing young talent. Experience is missing though. Pahlsson has some, Halpern has more. Then the prices were probably too high for those players. So can we think that the Hawks made a little mistake by wanting to make an acquisition at all cost and have been frustrated not being able to land the players they really wanted because of too expensive prices? Not sure, but that may explain why they gave up Wisniewski in this deal...

Peterman5000 wrote:workrate is really a key rating for players on lines 3 and 4

A few too many words there IMO.

Workrate is really a key rating for players. Period.

No matter which line/position they are on. Remember Yashin? Not that much of a third liner in terms of talent, but a soccer player work ethic. And we all know how it ended...

As for Rangers deals... i still believe it will cost them their playoffs spot. Which will make me both happy and sad. Happy to not have to see this jerk of Avery in spring, but sad because i've always liked Lundqvist since his days in Frölunda.

As for the potential cap freed up... It goes up to 8M$ because they added players with bigger contracts than the ones they sent. But all the ones they sent were upcoming free agents the Rags should have decided to not re-sign. So in the end, they won't free up more cap space than what they could free up originally. They'll even free 2M$ less thanks to Avery, the only of all the players involved who's already contracted for next season. So not only they won't get the possibility to free more cap space, but in fact they reduced that possibility. And in the same time reduced their capacity to re-sign their upcoming FAs. And they've lost two picks to do that. We've seen smarter moves...

As for the Rags not winning the Cup this year... well... everyone knows that

Peterman5000 · Post by **Peterman5000** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:05 am

Shadd666 wrote:Reinprecht ended up off that list pretty soon, batdad As soon as the Yotes traded Jokinen in fact. But yeah, a guy like Halpern should have been a better fit for the Hawks than Pahlsson. Sure, as Peterman mentionned, Pahlsson is younger. But the Hawks are clearly not missing young talent. Experience is missing though. Pahlsson has some, Halpern has more. Then the prices were probably too high for those players. So can we think that the Hawks made a little mistake by wanting to make an acquisition at all cost and have been frustrated not being able to land the players they really wanted because of too expensive prices? Not sure, but that may explain why they gave up Wisniewski in this deal...

Peterman5000 wrote:workrate is really a key rating for players on lines 3 and 4
A few too many words there IMO.

Workrate is really a key rating for players. Period.

No matter which line/position they are on. Remember Yashin? Not that much of a third liner in terms of talent, but a soccer player work ethic. And we all know how it ended...

As for Rangers deals... i still believe it will cost them their playoffs spot. Which will make me both happy and sad. Happy to not have to see this jerk of Avery in spring, but sad because i've always liked Lundqvist since his days in Frölunda.

As for the potential cap freed up... It goes up to 8M$ because they added players with bigger contracts than the ones they sent. But all the ones they sent were upcoming free agents the Rags should have decided to not re-sign. So in the end, they won't free up more cap space than what they could free up originally. They'll even free 2M$ less thanks to Avery, the only of all the players involved who's already contracted for next season. So not only they won't get the possibility to free more cap space, but in fact they reduced that possibility. And in the same time reduced their capacity to re-sign their upcoming FAs. And they've lost two picks to do that. We've seen smarter moves...

As for the Rags not winning the Cup this year... well... everyone knows that

LOL

I am a Rangers fan, maybe my point of view is just rejected because of that. If I was running the Rangers, things would have been done a lot differently, however, I can only suffer like everyone else.

Sather needs to retire - he's old and has little idea anymore, he spends too much time worrying about prospects that haven't developed and won't - If the Rangers had played their youngsters from the outset, then the Rangers would probably be a lot further a long. Hugh Jessiman is a perfect example. When the Rangers were missing the playoffs oh those many years, Jessiman could have been in there, learning, and playing at a pro level, instead his game is totally off and he's playing in the A for the Predators.

Playing unknown prospects has never been something the Rangers are willing to do - Giving the Pruchas, Dawes' and Anisimovs of the world 10 minutes at best a game isn't playing the youth ...it's holding them back.

Sather should have signed Marc Savard and put two youngsters on his line. Then maybe a Reinprecht or similar center on the next line - instead he keeps buying washed up has-beens so the corporate idiots can watch a "world class player"

I'm just as tired of it as you NON Ranger fans. Believe me.

I hope whoever takes over the team, when Sather does leave, actually commits fully to a rebuild. Play the damned kids.

Post by **Shadd666** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:58 pm

Can't agree more with you on this...

As far as i can remember, Rangers have always been great on the paper with "big names", but horrible on ice because those supposedly big guys where in fact almost dead. Yes, they reunited Messier and Gretzky at a point... With which result? Everyone knows...

They never play the youngsters because they know peanuts about youngsters. Just look at how badly they are drafting year after year. Outside of the obious gems like Lundqvist, they are unable to recognize what is a good youngster and what is a naff player. Just look at teams like San Jose, Detroit, or Boston, to mention just a few, and look at the high proportion of players coming directly from their own draft choices. Then compare this proportion to the Rangers one. Yeah, big difference.

Winning teams are built through solid drafting. Trades and FA acquisitions can't hurt for sure, but the core of the team has to be built through draft. Which requires good scouting, and then good development of the youngsters. The Rags are doing the exact opposite: they skip on youngsters and focus only on trades and FAs. Still wondering why they never do anything in the post-season?

Their only title in the past 50+ years was only because they had so many of those big names, including some still in their prime for once, that they couldn't do anything else than winning. And they had iron Mike behind the bench to remember them to play, which couldn't hurt. Let's also add that there was no salary cap at this time, and the Rangers were by far one of the richest team in the league, if not THE richest. If my memory serves, there was a time when they were spending over 65M$ in salaries while most of the teams had troubles reaching the 45M$ mark. And darn they spent all those millions year after year after year. With which results? Just 1 Cup in over 50 years... A bit better than the Leafs, sure, but they are not a very good comparaison point

So yeah, Sather really needs to go. As for the next GM, i wouldn't say that he would have to rebuild. But rather that he would have to build what has never been built: a team. Not a bunch of guys coming in for the big bucks of the big apple. No, a real team.

Anyway, there are reasons to hope for Rangers fans... Even the Maple Leafs found themselves able to hire a competent GM. If they could, everyone can!

Post by **getzlaf15** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:09 pm

Another Managererial casualty today is Guy Carbonneau, The Habs fired him and placed Bob Gainey in charge of things. I didn't think he was doing a bad job, 5th in the East. Started well and trailed off abit. Is it really worth a sacking?

Post by **philou21** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:09 pm

Here in QC we have a big news Guy Carbonneau as been fired this afternoon and Gainey will replace him for the rest of the season. Wish it was Gainey fired first but.....The media says that they contact players of the Montreal Canadien and they say they were happy of that decision, that proove it's not all the time the fault of the players.

Post by **philou21** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:12 pm

getzlaf15 wrote:Another Managererial casualty today is Guy Carbonneau, The Habs fired him and placed Bob Gainey in charge of things. I didn't think he was doing a bad job, 5th in the East. Started well and trailed off abit. Is it really worth a sacking?

Yes the team was in a great position instead of a struggle since the all-star game but Carbonneau was too much playing with is line after each game. The same players were never together 2-3 games in a row. He never let the time to the player to develop a chemistry, he was too impatient.

mtsouth · Post by **mtsouth** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:04 am

Shadd666 wrote:Can't agree more with you on this...

As far as i can remember, Rangers have always been great on the paper with "big names", but horrible on ice because those supposedly big guys where in fact almost dead. Yes, they reunited Messier and Gretzky at a point... With which result? Everyone knows...

They never play the youngsters because they know peanuts about youngsters. Just look at how badly they are drafting year after year. Outside of the obious gems like Lundqvist, they are unable to recognize what is a good youngster and what is a naff player. Just look at teams like San Jose, Detroit, or Boston, to mention just a few, and look at the high proportion of players coming directly from their own draft choices. Then compare this proportion to the Rangers one. Yeah, big difference.

Winning teams are built through solid drafting. Trades and FA acquisitions can't hurt for sure, but the core of the team has to be built through draft. Which requires good scouting, and then good development of the youngsters. The Rags are doing the exact opposite: they skip on youngsters and focus only on trades and FAs. Still wondering why they never do anything in the post-season?

Their only title in the past 50+ years was only because they had so many of those big names, including some still in their prime for once, that they couldn't do anything else than winning. And they had iron Mike behind the bench to remember them to play, which couldn't hurt. Let's also add that there was no salary cap at this time, and the Rangers were by far one of the richest team in the league, if not THE richest. If my memory serves, there was a time when they were spending over 65M$ in salaries while most of the teams had troubles reaching the 45M$ mark. And darn they spent all those millions year after year after year. With which results? Just 1 Cup in over 50 years... A bit better than the Leafs, sure, but they are not a very good comparaison point

So yeah, Sather really needs to go. As for the next GM, i wouldn't say that he would have to rebuild. But rather that he would have to build what has never been built: a team. Not a bunch of guys coming in for the big bucks of the big apple. No, a real team.

Anyway, there are reasons to hope for Rangers fans... Even the Maple Leafs found themselves able to hire a competent GM. If they could, everyone can!

Sounds a lot like another NY sports team that spent over 1/2 billion this offseason on 3 players. You need to make a foundation and then add pieces to it. Not depend on FA to bring you the big pieces and hope what you draft can fill in.

Peterman5000 · Post by **Peterman5000** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:08 pm

Rangers aren't nearly as bad as the Spankees.

The Rangers are playing many of their own draft picks.

Post by **batdad** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:10 pm

Rangers draft picks. Not sure if this counts as "many"

1. Dubinsky
2. Callahan
3. Staal
4. Lundquist

That is all.

Red Wings by comparison have 10. Plus 2 guys they have had in their line up for 15 years if they have had them a day (draper, maltby)

Post by **batdad** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Sorry forgot Korpikoski. I suppose he counts. So 5.

Post by **Shadd666** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:58 pm

Yup, and San Jose has 12 or 13 guys coming from the draft. Boston has a lot too. "Surprisingly", they are the top-3 teams since the beginning of the season...

philou21 wrote:Carbonneau was too much playing with is line after each game. The same players were never together 2-3 games in a row. He never let the time to the player to develop a chemistry, he was too impatient.

Not necessarily a big time mistake if handled correctly. Just look at Keenan in Calgary. He never had more than 2-3 games with the same lineup over the first 40-50 games of the season, and it didn't prevent the Flames to be a solid leader in the NW division... Everyone has at least a little chemistry with everyone, wich allows now to change line combinations due to injuries or bad shape and have lines ready to go. It also offers more possibilities in the lineup. Sometimes it just blows up because players aren't made to play together... Lesson taken, line combination suppressed from the possibility. Better to learn that now rather than during the playoffs...

Big difference though: Flames are a hard-working team and will battle so hard that they can find ways to win even when chemistry is lacking. The Habs aren't that much of a hard-working team. Mostly the contrary in fact.

Not sure Carb was impatient. He's got inconsistent players who are stars one day and disappear the next one. So he had to try to guess when a certain player will be playing hard and when he'd have a night off. You can play this betting game when you've got just one guy like that in your squad, and it's already hard. But when most of your core players are like that, the gambling becomes impossible. And even this way, Carb put the Habs in the 5th position, which is nearly a miracle.

Carb was not the problem. Gainey was. Still is. But wasn't it Gainey who fired Claude Julien a few years back? Now see what Julien is doing in Boston... Under him, even a guy like Savard became solid at both ends of the ice. See how well the B's youngsters are developping... But Gainey fired him nonetheless. The day Gainey will be fired, the Habs will make a giant step closer to the Stanley Cup.

Hypnotist · Post by **Hypnotist** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:28 am

Congrats to Marty Brodeur on his 552nd NHL victory.

Too bad the idiotic Vs. announcers are such tools. When Marty started cutting the net off, they were talking about how it had never been done before. Did these two jacka$$e$ even know hockey existed when Patrick Roy got win #551 and cut the net off? "Coverage" like is on Vs. makes me sad.

Post by **getzlaf15** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:40 am

Haha, Versus was really bad coverage, but it's Vs, what are you expecting. I would have just taken the whole net, why spend time cutting the net off!? Maybe he's going to use it as a duvet on his bed.

Post by **Shadd666** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:44 pm

The NHL on Versucks? Yeah, really bad coverage with clueless announcers. Turn the TV sound off and put some good music

Anyway, what happened to the Flames in their 8-6 loss to Toronto this weekend??? I wasn't at home so i couldn't watch the game, and nhl.com highlights seem to be buggy right now, so no way to see what happened. McElhinney in net? Or Kipper is starting to burn after all the games already played? I know the Flames are horrible defensively, but it is even worse lately. And even Kipper can't make enough miracles to make it look decent... Ready for another first round exit?

selne · Post by **selne** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:27 pm

Oh, the Sabres just won't win. I really hope they can reach the Playoffs.

They have an interesting team with a lot of talent. At least Miller is back and there are still some games left. It's Millertime!!

Post by **philou21** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:23 pm

Just a quick replie to shaddd666. I agree and desagree with you're comment. I don't really like Bob Gainey and he's a big part of the Habs problem and i think is not a good GM at all. But Carbonneau did a certain ''good'' job yes but like we know ( In Quebec ) he is very bad to communicate with the player and this is a big problem. He was always trying to pass is message by the TV or in an interview. That's not the way he should do it. You go talk to the player and you bring him to your office and have a little talk. I really hope that the Habs will not make the playoff and to Mr Boivin to have the guts to fired Gainey after the season and BEFORE the UFA. Because we all notice that Gainey is very good

for signing UFA. At this rate we gotta have 11 UFA at the end of the season

. That's why we lose so much people here. Try to negociate 11 contracts in 2 weeks....wow great job Bob. After Carbo, still Gainey to go and the best captain and player of all Canadian history Mr Koivu himself

. ( oh and i forgot the best to gathering the player together and to backstab he's team-mate ) and maybe Kovalev too and the little clean up is done! Now we will see what they capable of maybe.

Post by **batdad** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:05 am

It could be worse Philou. The next coach in Montreal could be Denis Savard...I mean he speaks french and everything!! Or it could be that superstar Bob Hartley. Or Marc Crawford. Or maybe, just maybe Patty Roy gets to be GM!!

Post by **philou21** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:16 am

I don't know if it could be worse lol but seriously I don't know what is got to take to the club to win lol Here in QC it's a big question about ahhh the head coach must be bilingual blabla but for me what it count the most is the experience in coaching ( for GM too ) but some fans want a french speaking head-coach. I understand there decision we live in QC and they want to preserve the ''tradition''. But for me with the situation, bring the experience and pay a traductor for him

Post by **Shadd666** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:21 pm

Philou, i agree that Carb's comunication with the players was probably not the best. But still... He ranks his team 5th in the standings after the deadline... and gets canned? What the...? And did Bob ever asked Carb to communicate more directly to the players? Maybe he did, i don't know. Anyway, you don't fire your coach when you're ranked 5th. You don't fire your coach either just a few days after telling the press that his acquisition was your best move as a GM. Gainey did both at the same time. How surprising it is now to see Montreal 8th and far from being sure to keep its playoffs spot?

I mean, i'm not defending Carb in any way, i'm just saying that firing him in those circumstances was just pure stupidity and sent a bad message to the team... who reacted badly, without any surprise.

If Gainey wanted to get rid of Carb, he should have done this either earlier this year (when he probably seen the first signs of what he didn't like in him), or after the season ends. But not 5-6 weeks away from the playoffs while the playoff spot isn't secured yet. Very bad timing. Or very good... someway... This could be the "too many" mistake that should lead Gainey to be fired, which should only be a good thing for the Habs. Then get rid of Koivu, Tanguay and Kovalev, and start to build smartly.

---

What's this mess with Ovy's 50th goal celebration? I mean, okay, it was not really smart from him to do that. But if the Lightning guys really felt humiliated, why didn't they try to goon him up? Gutless? Moaning and crying like soccer players won't help them to be respected

And if they didn't want that to happen, they might have thought about building something that looks like a defense, who knows... I can understand that they felt ashamed, but to some extent they can be really shamefull.

Anyway, i'm not defending Ovy's goal celebrations. Pointless. But that's just my opinion.

Post by **philou21** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:48 pm

Yes you're right. But there some things maybe you don't know just because you live outside of the Qc province. A lots of people discuss taht even if Gainey and Carbo where big friends, Gillet or Boivin tell to Gainey....Hey Bob if you don't fired Carbo now it's you or both that will be fired( Prefer Gainey lol ). You see the situation? And after the event of the Kostitsyn brothers, the team seem to be pretty apart now. That also a big problem. The Kostitsyn affair is a big one. The media can't told anything because the are told to shut up by the lawyers of the Canadiens. But this could be a big news when all the truth will come out and with all this bull**** i can't even think how much this can be disturbing for the player's of the team. It will be too long too explain here because there's a lot to say but if you want to know more check my e-mail and we can discuss..in french

Post by **Shadd666** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:30 pm

philou21 wrote:A lots of people discuss taht even if Gainey and Carbo where big friends, Gillet or Boivin tell to Gainey....Hey Bob if you don't fired Carbo now it's you or both that will be fired( Prefer Gainey lol ). You see the situation?

No need to live in Qc to see that. Firing the head coach in the circumstances i've described in my previous post? Very stupid. So either Gainey is the dumbest guy on earth, or he did that just to keep his job (at least temporarily). Gainey doesn't look to be THAT dumb, so there's few doubts that he is just securing his job a bit longer.

But... If the team continues to struggle the way it does and misses the playoffs or gets an early exit (which are the most probable scenarios), Gainey will probably not be Montreal's GM next year, so he's not securing a lot of things... But he fired his friend nonetheless, and furthermore a friend who was doing a decent job. Just for one or two additional monthly paychecks... If he can live with it, good for him.

Everyone knows he is not the best GM and makes several mistakes. Now he shows he has absolutely no loyalty whatsoever. Who will hire him once he'll be fired? Who will want to work with him? Being fired now or in 1-2 months, what does it change? He will be fired anyway. He had the opportunity to show some loyalty and defend someone who deserved to be defended. He failed miserably. Again.

As for the justice affair with the Kostitsyn brothers, honestly, i don't care that much about what happened. I care more about what they (always forgot to) show on the ice. Thanks for proposing anyway

Post by **philou21** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:32 pm

Yesterday they won 6-3 agaisnt the Thrashers and finally they played a 60 min game. Now we will see if they woke up ( with 8 games left

). But for me i wish they didn't make it to the playoff because they just don't deserve it and this will maybe advance some things in the club, like fired Gainey

, and getting rid of certain players who don't play with they're heart at all. With a new DG i'm sure he will be more agressive than Gainey ( too easy to beat that ) on the UFA and go sign some Canadian players or great europeen players. But i really hope that even if the Habs make the playoff Gainey will be fired...please lol

Post by **Calv** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:22 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yS09w6lVHI

Post by **philou21** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:32 am

This video is completly awesome Calv lollll I'm almost die laughing

Post by **joehelmer** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:07 am

That vid was absolutely awesome and once again Salo stands as a example for a failure.